If Wills Had Fought And Beaten Dempsey In1922?

[travestyny]

Dempsey was barely in his third year as a pro when he fought Lester Johnson. The Dempsey-hater forgot Dempsey beat another black fighter as a pro. Emmanuel Campbell. He beat the guy so badly he never fought again.

Dempsey hired Battling Jim Johnson as a sparring partner who claimed Dempsey hit harder than any man he had ever fought, and he once fought to a draw with Jack Johnson and had many battles with Langford, Wills, Jeannette, McVey. That’s quite the compliment and testimony. Of course the Dempsey-hater would probably call him a liar, same way he accused Langford, McVey and Jeannette of being liars.

I know you're gonna love this one Said he would fight Wills within 2 weeks after Firpo??? You don't say! Guess you're going to say Tad is a liar like you said Dempsey's trainer was a liar, huh?

Is it true that Dempsey called him "The Greatest Authority on Boxing???"

Jack Dempsey described him as "the greatest authority on boxing."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tad_Dorgan

[travestyny]

Plus, I'm not the only one that believes John Lester beat the fighting spirit out of Dempsey when it came to facing Black challengers. Let's take a trip back in time, shall we?

[Willie Pep 229]

Dempsey was barely in his third year as a pro when he fought Lester Johnson. The Dempsey-hater forgot Dempsey beat another black fighter as a pro. Emmanuel Campbell. He beat the guy so badly he never fought again.

Dempsey hired Battling Jim Johnson as a sparring partner who claimed Dempsey hit harder than any man he had ever fought, and he once fought to a draw with Jack Johnson and had many battles with Langford, Wills, Jeannette, McVey. That’s quite the compliment and testimony. Of course the Dempsey-hater would probably call him a liar, same way he accused Langford, McVey and Jeannette of being liars.

As much as I would like to agree with you, (as a fellow Dempsey fan,) I never believe what sparring partners say. Whether it's good or bad.

The guy (sparring partner) is either going to praise his meal ticket or he's going to disparage the camp that let him go.

I think sparring partners are a terrible source of information.

The only thing worst than a sparring partner is a reporter reporting on a sparring session. Lol

There is almost always an agenda at play there as well.

Managers, sparring partners, trainers, reporters, promoters . . . everyone has an agenda.

All one can really do is try to put together a preponderance of evidence and see if you can draw a reasonable conclusion.

One thing you can say about Dempsey is you never hear anyone say, "Eh, he didn't hit that hard." You never hear that!

Of course the very best evidence is all those 1st and 2nd round KOs, that's just plain reality.

[GhostofDempsey]

As much as I would like to agree with you, (as a fellow Dempsey fan,) I never believe what sparring partners say. Whether it's good or bad.

The guy (sparring partner) is either going to praise his meal ticket or he's going to disparage the camp that let him go.

I think sparring partners are a terrible source of information.

The only thing worst than a sparring partner is a reporter reporting on a sparring session. Lol

There is almost always an agenda at play there as well.

Managers, sparring partners, trainers, reporters, promoters . . . everyone has an agenda.

All one can really do is try to put together a preponderance of evidence and see if you can draw a reasonable conclusion.

One thing you can say about Dempsey is you never hear anyone say, "Eh, he didn't hit that hard." You never hear that!

Of course the very best evidence is all those 1st and 2nd round KOs, that's just plain reality.

Thing is, Jim Johnson said this after he was no longer a sparring partner. His comment was along the lines of he would never get in the ring with him again. During their sparring sessions Dempsey knocked him through the ropes and flat on his back. He knocked him down and nearly out cold three times in the first round of their second session. Kearns insisted Dempsey ease up on him because they had trouble getting sparring partners for him. Dempsey was notoriously ruthless during sparring. He wanted Battling Jim because he knew Johnson would fight and not try to hold him or clinch like his other sparring partners.

[Dr. Z]

Show the offers. Ivich has been asking you for them for a long time. Show us the offers. That's what we want.

The French did in fact strip Jack Johnson for not fighting Langford or Jeannette! We have been over this before. I'm busy now. Do you need a link to that?


Promoters tried to make a match a match vs. them several times, in France for example in Paris 1913-1914.

Here you go:

https://www.nytimes.com/1913/08/30/archives/langford-to-box-johnson-twentyround-bout-to-be-held-in-paris-on.html

Jonhson always wormed his way out of a fight with Langford. It's not enough money he would always say, then turns around and fights Jim Battling Johnson for peanuts, and Moran in a fight where he made nothing!

Are you saying he never was offered more money than actually made in these two fights? Are you saying he would not draw more fans and make more $$$ vs. Langford or Jeannette than he did vs Jim Battling Johnson?

I told you to do your own homework. I'm busy this week. Now while I'm busy try to owner my questions! I put the ? in CAPS above just for you. I appreciate some answers.

[travestyny]

The French did in fact strip Jack Johnson for not fighting Langford or Jeannette! We have been over this before. I'm busy now. Do you need a link to that?


Promoters tried to make a match a match vs. them several times, in France for example in Paris 1913-1914.

Here you go:

https://www.nytimes.com/1913/08/30/archives/langford-to-box-johnson-twentyround-bout-to-be-held-in-paris-on.html

Jonhson always wormed his way out of a fight with Langford. It's not enough money he would always say, then turns around and fights Jim Battling Johnson for peanuts, and Moran in a fight where he made nothing!

Are you saying he never was offered more money than actually made in these two fights? Are you saying he would not draw more fans and make more $$$ vs. Langford or Jeannette than he did vs Jim Battling Johnson?

I told you to do your own homework. I'm busy this week. Now while I'm busy try to owner my questions! I put the ? in CAPS above just for you. I appreciate some answers.

I don't have a subscription so I can't see it anymore. All I see is Langford's manager saying they had an agreement.


It's not true what you are saying. Johnson agreed about 4 times to fight Langford. There were even times where Langford was the one who "wormed out of it," as you say.


PROOF -- And one person who verifies is a neutral third party who wanted the fight. I think that means this is done.

[Dr. Z]

I don't have a subscription so I can't see it anymore. All I see is Langford's manager saying they had an agreement.

Yes, they did in France where Johnson had no legal problems preventing a fight there. Nor did Johnson have the NY commission is his back pocket. I say move the fight! Vegas will do. No fight was banned there!

I provided you with an offer in France and a link to it. That is what you asked for and were hoping I could not provide. Okay I did that. There are other offers in French. As stated the French stripped Johnson because he would not fight Langford or Jeannette in France.

You still did not answer my questions. I'll ask you again. Why are you ducking me?

Are you saying Johnson was never offered more money than actually made in two fights in France? Are you saying he would not draw more fans and make more $$$ vs. Langford or Jeannette than he did vs Jim Battling Johnson? Speak up.

[Ivich]

The French did in fact strip Jack Johnson for not fighting Langford or Jeannette! We have been over this before. I'm busy now. Do you need a link to that?


Promoters tried to make a match a match vs. them several times, in France for example in Paris 1913-1914.

Here you go:

https://www.nytimes.com/1913/08/30/archives/langford-to-box-johnson-twentyround-bout-to-be-held-in-paris-on.html

Jonhson always wormed his way out of a fight with Langford. It's not enough money he would always say, then turns around and fights Jim Battling Johnson for peanuts, and Moran in a fight where he made nothing!

Are you saying he never was offered more money than actually made in these two fights? Are you saying he would not draw more fans and make more $$$ vs. Langford or Jeannette than he did vs Jim Battling Johnson?

I told you to do your own homework. I'm busy this week. Now while I'm busy try to owner my questions! I put the ? in CAPS above just for you. I appreciate some answers.

Yes they stripped him for just under 3 weeks then reinstated him.
We are still waiting for the names of promoters,the venues ,the dates ,and the purses for all these fights you say Johnson refused!

NB Unsupported by proof newspaper blurbs are not cold, hard, factual offers.
I myself requested these offers from you over ten years ago, on another forum,still with no answers from you!

[Dr. Z]

Yes they stripped him for just under 3 weeks then reinstated him.
We are still waiting for the names of promoters,the venues ,the dates ,and the purses for all these fights you say Johnson refused!

NB Unsupported by proof newspaper blurbs are not cold, hard, factual offers.
I myself requested these offers from you over ten years ago, on another forum,still with no answers from you!

YOU don't answer my questions when I ask them. You change the topic and ignore my facts. Keep moving those goal posts. I provided the offer in France. I showed the offer in the UK. I showed the offers in Australia, and the USA. All from known promoters. But, but, but it's always the other guys fault and never Johnson's! Yeah right. Prove to me he 1 ) signed the offer 2 ) and could not move that fight. You can't. Now get lost or admit for once you made a mistake. You make lots of them. I didn't not provide one in Canada though! I guess you got me on that one! Nevertheless, no fights vs. Langford, Jeannette, and Mcvey....fights with Johnson for 1908 - retirement! It never happened! They all wanted it, Johnson skirted them all. Read this reply five times, you just might get it. Might...

[Dr. Z]

I don't have a subscription so I can't see it anymore. All I see is Langford's manager saying they had an agreement.


It's not true what you are saying. Johnson agreed about 4 times to fight Langford. There were even times where Langford was the one who "wormed out of it," as you say.


PROOF -- And one person who verifies is a neutral third party who wanted the fight. I think that means this is done.

He fought and made far less than 20k in France. Facts are stubborn things, aren't they? Offers we made by Langford and Jeannette. You are.