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If Wills Had Fought And Beaten Dempsey In1922?

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  • Originally posted by Ivich View Post
    Yes you're right Pollacks 2nd vol of Johnson confirms this.Mystery solved!
    But is that a "duck"?

    He has a verbal agreement to fight McVey and the money was there. But instead takes what most would agree was an easier fight against Flynn.

    It's not like the Flynn fight was a guarantee either. We know that between January and July that fight gets moved (barred) in every State in the Union except the desert State of New Mexico.

    JJ doesn't make the money from the fight he thought he would. The crowd small and the film confiscated. He certainly would have done better in Australia fighting McVey.

    There is even a good chance the Sims Act doesn't come into force and he makes money off the film as well and a more receptive Australian crowd.

    If you take the standards these posters apply to Dempsey that what is good for the goose . . . Johnson ducked McVey for an easier fight.

    Is that a duck?

    Now not to be disingenuous I have always argued that a fighter/champion should take the best fight for the best money and in this case that would be taking the Flynn fight. There really wasn't any way for JJ to see that the Flynn fight would economically fall apart as it did. In short: As JJ's manager I would have advised him to do what he did do.

    What I am challenging is the BS manner, the duplicity of some posters on this forum, who, when Dempsey does it, he is afraid of black men, but when Johnson does it, it suddenly becomes the right thing to do.
    Last edited by Willie Pep 229; 09-13-2023, 11:56 AM.
    GhostofDempsey GhostofDempsey likes this.

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    • Originally posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post

      But is that a "duck"?

      He has a verbal agreement to fight McVey and the money was there. But instead takes what most would agree was an easier fight against Flynn.

      It's not like the Flynn fight was a guarantee either. We know that between January and July that fight gets moved (barred) in every State in the Union except the desert State of New Mexico.

      JJ doesn't make the money from the fight he thought he would. The crowd small and the film confiscated. He certainly would have done better in Australia fighting McVey.

      There is even a good chance the Sims Act doesn't come into force and he makes money off the film as well and a more receptive Australian crowd.

      If you take the standards these posters apply to Dempsey that what is good for the goose . . . Johnson ducked McVey for an easier fight.

      Is that a duck?

      Now not to be disingenuous I have always argued that a fighter/champion should take the best fight for the best money and in this case that would be taking the Flynn fight. There really wasn't any way for JJ to see that the Flynn fight would economically fall apart as it did. In short: As JJ's manager I would have advised him to do what he did do.

      What I am challenging is the BS manner, the duplicity of some posters on this forum, who, when Dempsey does it, he is afraid of black men, but when Johnson does it, it suddenly becomes the right thing to do.
      Johnson fought a young McVey 3 times stopping him in their last fight after giving him a bad beating. In1912 McVey had 5 fights 4 with Langford losing all of them, and being stopped in 2 of them,the only fight he won that year was over Jim Barry ,a journeyman.
      ​​​​So his current form was not intimidating,you are entitled to interpret Johnson's actions as you wish.

      The Flynn fight lost money for its promoter Jim Curley,not Johnson.

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      • Originally posted by Ivich View Post

        Johnson fought a young McVey 3 times stopping him in their last fight after giving him a bad beating. In1912 McVey had 5 fights 4 with Langford losing all of them, and being stopped in 2 of them,the only fight he won that year was over Jim Barry ,a journeyman.
        ​​​​So his current form was not intimidating,you are entitled to interpret Johnson's actions as you wish.

        The Flynn fight lost money for its promoter Jim Curley,not Johnson.
        What "interpretation" are you referring to?

        I was only challenging the duplicity common to the forum. Excuses always seem to be made for Johnson, but under simliar circumstances white fighters are called duckers. Why is that?

        I made it clear that I would have taken the Flynn fight, not McVey. I repeat, at that moment it was the right move.

        Yes JJ probably got his guarantee but there was no extra dollars from from any gate receipt %, or any film money.

        Both would likely have been there if he fought McVey in Australia. So in the end I would argue he lost money by taking Flynn.

        In regards to their pervious fights, I don't see how they matter if the Austrialian fight was ready to go, someone must of thought McVey worthy enought even if you don't.
        GhostofDempsey GhostofDempsey likes this.

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        • [QUOTE=Willie Pep 229;n32005047]

          What "interpretation" are you referring to?

          I was only challenging the duplicity common to the forum. Excuses always seem to be made for Johnson, but under simliar circumstances white fighters are called duckers. Why is that?

          I made it clear that I would have taken the Flynn fight, not McVey. I repeat, at that moment it was the right move.

          Yes JJ probably got his guarantee but there was no extra dollars from from any gate receipt %, or any film money.

          Both would likely have been there if he fought McVey in Australia. So in the end I would argue he lost money by taking Flynn.

          In regards to their pervious fights, I don't see how they matter if the Austrialian fight was ready to go, someone must of thought McVey worthy enought even if you don't. [/QU

          The interpretation that anyone here is entitled to put on the failure of a fighter to go through with a fight.
          I never implied McVey wasn't worthy of a fight, I said his current form would not have intimidated Johnson.
          .McVey would have beaten Flynn too and probably quicker.
          The previous fights would suggest,at least to me that Johnson had nothing to fear from fighting McVey.
          Johnson got $30,500 and without travelling half way around the world to do so.
          What basis do you have to suppose Johnson lost money by opting for Flynn over McVey?

          Comment


          • The quoting system doesn't seem to be working very well.

            Ivich,

            My basis for why I think Johnson makes more money if he goes to Australia.

            In May of 1912 when the Yellow Dogs realized they couldn't stop the Flynn fight in New Mexico they tried to pass what would become known as the Sims Act, a prohibition against the interstate commerce of fight films, based on Congress's right to regulate interstate commerce, Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3 of the United States Consitution.

            But they foolishly announced, both to the media and on the floor of Congress, that they were deliberately cutting off Johnson's last stream of possible revenue.

            The northern reformers, whose support they needed to pass the bill, were deeply offended by this obvious racism and refused to support the bill, and it died in committee.

            But then Flynn so embarrassed himself that July 4th, and by proxy the entire white race, that everyone realized they couldn't let this fight be released in the theaters for fear of more violence.

            Thus just one day after Congress returned from its Sumner break on July 30th, the northern reformers realized they had to stop the distribution of the film and on July 31st reluctantly supported the Sims Act. (The Yellow Dogs used the threat of repeated violence to scare the reformers into supporting the bill.)

            Johnson had previously stated, actually bragged, that he expected to make more money off the film than he did off the fight.

            Now, if Johnson has instead traveled to Australia to fight McVey it is very unlikely that Sims would have proposed his bill and almost certainly the northern reformers would never have supported the bill, even if he had.

            With JJ fighting another black man (McVey) there would have been no opportunity for the Yellow Dogs to frighten the northern reformers with the fear, of a repeat of the 1910 violence, (Johnson-Jeffries fight).

            Because it would have been an all Negro fight it is unlikely there would have been any violence at all.

            So not only would there have been a larger crowd in Australia but it is very likely the Sims Act never comes into existence.

            The film would likely have made money in France, the UK, and many northern cities in the United States.

            So if we take JJ at his word, 'I'll make more money off the film than the gate,' it means JJ likely gets more money from a larger gate and more importantly gets his % of the film's distribution as well, but only if he fights in Australia.

            Also had Johnson in 1912 fought McVey, Langford, and or Jeannette in Australia, as he was offered, there is also a good chance the AG Office doesn't go after Johnson with the Mann Act, because he wouldn't have been in the country.

            With no conviction JJ could have taken the 50K offer from McIntosh, made even more money off the three films distributions; not been charged with a felony; and the Australian public wouldn't have soured on him.

            That is the basis as to why I think JJ makes much more money fighting McVey in Australia.

            Are you going to brush off my statements as merely my opinions? There is nothing I can do about that.

            P.S. Let me also add, had the Sims Act not been passed we would today have a much more extensive archive of films between 1912 through 1940. We lost that as well. We today probably would have a Greb fight to watch.
            Last edited by Willie Pep 229; 09-13-2023, 03:06 PM.
            Dr. Z Dr. Z likes this.

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            • Originally posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post
              The quoting system doesn't seem to be working very well.

              Ivich,

              My basis for why I think Johnson makes more money if he goes to Australia.

              In May of 1912 when the Yellow Dogs realized they couldn't stop the Flynn fight in New Mexico they tried to pass what would become known as the Sims Act, a prohibition against the interstate commerce of fight films, based on Congress's right to regulate interstate commerce, Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3 of the United States Consitution.

              But they foolishly announced, both to the media and on the floor of Congress, that they were deliberately cutting off Johnson's last stream of possible revenue.

              The northern reformers, whose support they needed to pass the bill, were deeply offended by this obvious racism and refused to support the bill, and it died in committee.

              But then Flynn so embarrassed himself that July 4th, and by proxy the entire white race, that everyone realized they couldn't let this fight be released in the theaters for fear of more violence.

              Thus just one day after Congress returned from its Sumner break on July 30th, the northern reformers realized they had to stop the distribution of the film and on July 31st reluctantly supported the Sims Act. (The Yellow Dogs used the threat of repeated violence to scare the reformers into supporting the bill.)

              Johnson had previously stated, actually bragged, that he expected to make more money off the film than he did off the fight.

              Now, if Johnson has instead traveled to Australia to fight McVey it is very unlikely that Sims would have proposed his bill and almost certainly the northern reformers would never have supported the bill, even if he had.

              With JJ fighting another black man (McVey) there would have been no opportunity for the Yellow Dogs to frighten the northern reformers with the fear, of a repeat of the 1910 violence, (Johnson-Jeffries fight).

              Because it would have been an all Negro fight it is unlikely there would have been any violence at all.

              So not only would there have been a larger crowd in Australia but it is very likely the Sims Act never comes into existence.

              The film would likely have made money in France, the UK, and many northern cities in the United States.

              So if we take JJ at his word, 'I'll make more money off the film than the gate,' it means JJ likely gets more money from a larger gate and more importantly gets his % of the film's distribution as well, but only if he fights in Australia.

              Also had Johnson in 1912 fought McVey, Langford, and or Jeannette in Australia, as he was offered, there is also a good chance the AG Office doesn't go after Johnson with the Mann Act, because he wouldn't have been in the country.

              With no conviction JJ could have taken the 50K offer from McIntosh, made even more money off the three films distributions; not been charged with a felony; and the Australian public wouldn't have soured on him.

              That is the basis as to why I think JJ makes much more money fighting McVey in Australia.

              Are you going to brush off my statements as merely my opinions? There is nothing I can do about that.

              P.S. Let me also add, had the Sims Act not been passed we would today have a much more extensive archive of films between 1912 through 1940. We lost that as well. We today probably would have a Greb fight to watch.
              I just asked you to explain your thinking,and you have,I'm not brushing you off about anything,

              I acknowledged your right to your opinion how is that combative?
              If you're having a bad day okay,Just put your hands down, I myself have just had to drink a litre of strong laxative in preparation for an op tomorrow,I have another litre to drink in the morning and will not be able to eat for at least another16 hours, take it easy.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Ivich View Post
                I just asked you to explain your thinking,and you have,I'm not brushing you off about anything,

                I acknowledged your right to your opinion how is that combative?
                If you're having a bad day okay,Just put your hands down, I myself have just had to drink a litre of strong laxative in preparation for an op tomorrow,I have another litre to drink in the morning and will not be able to eat for at least another16 hours, take it easy.
                Not a single word about my argument!

                Just an ad hominem about my character.

                Good luck tomorrow.
                Last edited by Willie Pep 229; 09-13-2023, 03:31 PM.
                Dr. Z Dr. Z likes this.

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                • Originally posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post

                  Not a single word about my argument!

                  Just an ad hominem about my character.

                  Good luck tomorrow.
                  I'm not really in the mood for sparring with you , I thought I was being conciliatory.
                  I know absolutely nothing about your character ,but if you are determined to take umbrage there's nothing I can do about it.

                  Thank you for the good wishes.
                  travestyny travestyny likes this.

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                  • Originally posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post

                    But is that a "duck"?

                    He has a verbal agreement to fight McVey and the money was there. But instead takes what most would agree was an easier fight against Flynn.

                    It's not like the Flynn fight was a guarantee either. We know that between January and July that fight gets moved (barred) in every State in the Union except the desert State of New Mexico.

                    JJ doesn't make the money from the fight he thought he would. The crowd small and the film confiscated. He certainly would have done better in Australia fighting McVey.

                    There is even a good chance the Sims Act doesn't come into force and he makes money off the film as well and a more receptive Australian crowd.

                    If you take the standards these posters apply to Dempsey that what is good for the goose . . . Johnson ducked McVey for an easier fight.

                    Is that a duck?

                    Now not to be disingenuous I have always argued that a fighter/champion should take the best fight for the best money and in this case that would be taking the Flynn fight. There really wasn't any way for JJ to see that the Flynn fight would economically fall apart as it did. In short: As JJ's manager I would have advised him to do what he did do.

                    What I am challenging is the BS manner, the duplicity of some posters on this forum, who, when Dempsey does it, he is afraid of black men, but when Johnson does it, it suddenly becomes the right thing to do.
                    Again, he took the McVey fight. The promoter pulled it.

                    Dempsey himself pulled out of the Wills contract. And that was the best fight for the best money. It had been for the many years that he refused to fight him. He is even on record praising Wills while declaring he will draw the colorline on him. This can't be denied. Why do you think Dempsey drew the colorline? I don't think I have to post the article to prove that happened, do I?
                    Last edited by travestyny; 09-13-2023, 06:34 PM.

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                    • Johnson himself was quoted telling McKetrick he was not going to give title shots to the top black fighters of that era, it came straight from him mouth.

                      EB7090E9-705F-4234-BAB4-ABF3F1D3187C.jpg
                      Willie Pep 229 Willie Pep 229 likes this.

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