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  • Originally posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post

    If the San Francisco article is dated 30 December 1911 and it states that the fight (offer) is good until May of the next year, why didn t they fight?

    I keep reading people saying that the deal was revoked because Johnson was convicted and the Australians soured on him. But the dates don't work.

    Johnson is indicted in November of 1912 and convicted in May 1913.

    So if there was a 30K offer to fight in May 1912 why didn't he take it?

    [EDIT]

    I recognize that McIntosh will make a 50K offer for Johnson to fight McVey and Langford in Australia in late summer 1912 and that is the offer which is revoked once JJ is indicted. But it doesn't explain the earlier May 1912 offer for 30K.

    Johnson is quoted in the NYT (Janurary 1912) that he is considering a fight with Jim Flynn in July and then mentions that he will make an announcement on the proposed McVey fight in Australia in 'a couple of days.' But no announcement is forth coming. That I can find as of yet.

    So I ask again, why no McVey fight in May 1912?

    Anyone have a clue why this fight didn't happen?
    Johnson choose not to fight in 1911. Good info. Yes, why no fight for Mcvey with Jack Johnson in 1912. Why?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Ivich View Post

      I agree, just because Johnson didn't walk in the gutter or kow tow to Whites like a good ******,doesnt mean he adversely set back Black's ,that would be White folks reaction to Jack refusing to play the Uncle Tom like Langford did,The blame rests with White society imo ,not Johnson.
      I've seen contemporary comments from "Negro" (term at the time) organizations that disrespected Johnson and in fact believed he was setting black-white relations backwards.
      They admired him for showing blacks were as good if not superior to whites in sports, but abhorred his lifestyle.

      "And although Black Americans admired his courage and felt vindicated by his success in the ring, they were troubled by the ways that Johnson’s uncompromising individuality distanced him from the Black community, and by the fact that White Americans used his behavior as an excuse to seek reprisals against that community. In particular, Black Americans were angered by Johnson’s relationships with White women. That anger was motivated, in part, by the same race prejudice that moved the White community to object to Johnson’s romantic and sexual preference for White women."
      "Fearful that Johnson’s behavior would be taken as representative of the entire Black community, the Conference of Representative Chicago Colored Citizens issued a resolution “pledg[ing themselves] to use [their] highest endeavors to blot out any negro or set of negroes whose immoral conduct tends to lower the moral standard or bring into disrepute the entire negro race.”34 Johnson was also publicly denounced by other prominent Black Americans, including Booker T. Washington"

      But, as many of Johnson’s White girlfriends worked as **********s, the Black community did not accept Johnson’s explanation that he preferred White women because they were more likely to be monogamous. Nor did it appear to the Black community that Johnson’s interest in White women was driven by romantic love. While genuine affection and friendship undoubtably motivated him to keep the company of the White women with whom he was sexually involved, Johnson’s choice to seek loving relationships among women whom he paid to serve him and to whom he owed no reciprocal duty was more consistent with self-absorption than it was with romantic devotion.45 Accordingly, Johnson’s affirmative decision to renounce all Black women was difficult to interpret as anything other than an attempt to distance himself from the Black community and to partake of White racial privilege. This angered Black Americans.

      Above are quotes from Jack Johnson: Reluctant Hero of the Black Community Denise C. Morgan
      Dr. Z Dr. Z likes this.

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      • Originally posted by Mooshashi View Post

        I've seen contemporary comments from "Negro" (term at the time) organizations that disrespected Johnson and in fact believed he was setting black-white relations backwards.
        They admired him for showing blacks were as good if not superior to whites in sports, but abhorred his lifestyle.

        "And although Black Americans admired his courage and felt vindicated by his success in the ring, they were troubled by the ways that Johnson’s uncompromising individuality distanced him from the Black community, and by the fact that White Americans used his behavior as an excuse to seek reprisals against that community. In particular, Black Americans were angered by Johnson’s relationships with White women. That anger was motivated, in part, by the same race prejudice that moved the White community to object to Johnson’s romantic and sexual preference for White women."
        "Fearful that Johnson’s behavior would be taken as representative of the entire Black community, the Conference of Representative Chicago Colored Citizens issued a resolution “pledg[ing themselves] to use [their] highest endeavors to blot out any negro or set of negroes whose immoral conduct tends to lower the moral standard or bring into disrepute the entire negro race.”34 Johnson was also publicly denounced by other prominent Black Americans, including Booker T. Washington"

        But, as many of Johnson’s White girlfriends worked as **********s, the Black community did not accept Johnson’s explanation that he preferred White women because they were more likely to be monogamous. Nor did it appear to the Black community that Johnson’s interest in White women was driven by romantic love. While genuine affection and friendship undoubtably motivated him to keep the company of the White women with whom he was sexually involved, Johnson’s choice to seek loving relationships among women whom he paid to serve him and to whom he owed no reciprocal duty was more consistent with self-absorption than it was with romantic devotion.45 Accordingly, Johnson’s affirmative decision to renounce all Black women was difficult to interpret as anything other than an attempt to distance himself from the Black community and to partake of White racial privilege. This angered Black Americans.

        Above are quotes from Jack Johnson: Reluctant Hero of the Black Community Denise C. Morgan
        Johnsons first wife Mary was Black she ran out on him taking his wallet and ***elry,so perhaps he had a point? He also had an affair with Ada" Brick Top" Smith a leading Black performer and night club owner.His Black contemporary Sam McVey lived with Johnson and his wife for some time and Johnson paid for his funeral,his nephew Gus Rhodes traveled the world with him.
        Booker T Washington was caught in an act of voyeurism in a hotel, so I don't think he should have been taking the high moral ground against Johnson.
        Johnson had many black friends, especially in Chicago.So I don't think his case is as cut and dried as the author of this simplistic diatribe states.

        I believe Johnson was his own man and refused to be pigeon holed and expected everyone else to be the same.

        I also don't think he had the slightest regard for"white racial privilege",he considered all men equal regardless of race or colour,and his actions all his life demonstrate that he rejected the very notion of White privilege and supremacy.
        Who is to say he did not love his three White wives ? Irene Pineau his last wife ,who survived him said," I loved him for his courage ,he wasn't afraid of anything."

        Sam Langford sometimes travelled with **********s so did John L Sullivan,Stanley Ketchel and many other fighters of those times.
        Joe Jeannette married a White woman,but because he played the game and didn't make waves, nobody got on his case about him preferring White women.Its hypocrisy imo.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Mooshashi View Post

          I've seen contemporary comments from "Negro" (term at the time) organizations that disrespected Johnson and in fact believed he was setting black-white relations backwards.
          They admired him for showing blacks were as good if not superior to whites in sports, but abhorred his lifestyle.

          "And although Black Americans admired his courage and felt vindicated by his success in the ring, they were troubled by the ways that Johnson’s uncompromising individuality distanced him from the Black community, and by the fact that White Americans used his behavior as an excuse to seek reprisals against that community. In particular, Black Americans were angered by Johnson’s relationships with White women. That anger was motivated, in part, by the same race prejudice that moved the White community to object to Johnson’s romantic and sexual preference for White women."
          "Fearful that Johnson’s behavior would be taken as representative of the entire Black community, the Conference of Representative Chicago Colored Citizens issued a resolution “pledg[ing themselves] to use [their] highest endeavors to blot out any negro or set of negroes whose immoral conduct tends to lower the moral standard or bring into disrepute the entire negro race.”34 Johnson was also publicly denounced by other prominent Black Americans, including Booker T. Washington"

          But, as many of Johnson’s White girlfriends worked as **********s, the Black community did not accept Johnson’s explanation that he preferred White women because they were more likely to be monogamous. Nor did it appear to the Black community that Johnson’s interest in White women was driven by romantic love. While genuine affection and friendship undoubtably motivated him to keep the company of the White women with whom he was sexually involved, Johnson’s choice to seek loving relationships among women whom he paid to serve him and to whom he owed no reciprocal duty was more consistent with self-absorption than it was with romantic devotion.45 Accordingly, Johnson’s affirmative decision to renounce all Black women was difficult to interpret as anything other than an attempt to distance himself from the Black community and to partake of White racial privilege. This angered Black Americans.

          Above are quotes from Jack Johnson: Reluctant Hero of the Black Community Denise C. Morgan
          While I have also felt (and have unpopularly stated on this forum) that Johnson was part to blame for his troubles, it also needs to be recognized that the southern newspapers would not have given JJ a fair shake no matter how he acted.

          The South's brutal racist treatmennt of Joe Louis 20 years later I believe confirms this thought.

          What Johnson did do on his own, was make it difficult for White northern reformers to back him, as they would later with Joe Louis.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Dr. Z View Post


            I can stay on topic, it is you that keeps changing the record and running away. Now, he made but a few thousand at best vs. Jim Battling Johnson and made less than that amount vs Moran.

            Facts! Forget this $30,000.00 business. That was when he fought Flynn in 1912 in Las Vegas, NV. No one was banned from figthing in that state ever and you can not hide behind a NY atheltic commission not to Langford and Jeannette in Las Vegas. Why didn't Johnson move the fight there? Well Tell me.

            Jack Johnson skirted offers in France vs . Jeannette and Langford. The French stripped him for ducking them. Fact again. IMO, he would make more money vs them, what do you think?

            Now, I have become incredibly busy right now, so assuming you answer these questions, give me a while to answer them.​
            A promoter has to offer the fight in those places.

            We've asked you to show the offers several times. Do you have them or not? Stop ducking.
            Ivich Ivich likes this.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post

              If the San Francisco article is dated 30 December 1911 and it states that the fight (offer) is good until May of the next year, why didn t they fight?

              I keep reading people saying that the deal was revoked because Johnson was convicted and the Australians soured on him. But the dates don't work.

              Johnson is indicted in November of 1912 and convicted in May 1913.

              So if there was a 30K offer to fight in May 1912 why didn't he take it?

              [EDIT]

              I recognize that McIntosh will make a 50K offer for Johnson to fight McVey and Langford in Australia in late summer 1912 and that is the offer which is revoked once JJ is indicted. But it doesn't explain the earlier May 1912 offer for 30K.

              Johnson is quoted in the NYT (Janurary 1912) that he is considering a fight with Jim Flynn in July and then mentions that he will make an announcement on the proposed McVey fight in Australia in 'a couple of days.' But no announcement is forth coming. That I can find as of yet.

              So I ask again, why no McVey fight in May 1912?

              Anyone have a clue why this fight didn't happen?
              In the article, he says he will meet Jim Flynn before he leaves for Australia.

              When he signed to fight Jim Flynn, the condition was that he would not be allowed to fight anyone between May and the fight taking place. He objected to this putting off the McVey fight, but arrangements were made to please him, so McIntosh postponed the Australia fights and Johnson accepted, and then the fights were pulled.


              Evening Times, Jan. 8th, 1912




              Ivich Ivich likes this.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by travestyny View Post

                In the article, he says he will meet Jim Flynn before he leaves for Australia.

                When he signed to fight Jim Flynn, the condition was that he would not be allowed to fight anyone between May and the fight taking place. He objected to this putting off the McVey fight, but arrangements were made to please him, so McIntosh postponed the Australia fights and Johnson accepted, and then the fights were pulled.


                Evening Times, Jan. 8th, 1912



                Yes you're right Pollacks 2nd vol of Johnson confirms this.Mystery solved!
                travestyny travestyny likes this.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post

                  Actually just today while looking up the Johnson-Wills possibly I ran across two guys arguing on a forum (old posts) it was Mendoza and McVey and I burst out laughing when I realized I recognized the styles
                  It's like Godzilla vs Mechagodzilla....they will fight for all Eternity across many sites under many names.
                  Willie Pep 229 Willie Pep 229 likes this.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by travestyny View Post

                    A promoter has to offer the fight in those places.

                    We've asked you to show the offers several times. Do you have them or not? Stop ducking.
                    He always blames Johnson for fights not happening as though Johnson was the promoter as well as the participant!
                    travestyny travestyny likes this.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Mooshashi View Post

                      It's like Godzilla vs Mechagodzilla....they will fight for all Eternity across many sites under many names.
                      I'm not the one turning threads into Johnson hate fests, that is Z.

                      Comment

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