If Wills Had Fought And Beaten Dempsey In1922?

[Dr. Z]

Johnson had done nothing of worth between 1915-1922 so Dempsey didn't need the color line to blow off Johndon. No one wanted the fight except Johnson.

He (Johnson) had become a non-entity and no one was taking him seriously.

As I said in an earlier post Rickard showed the Johnson-Jeffries fight in 1921 in Chicago as a lead-in to the Dempsey-Carpentier film.

The audience ignored the fight and talked over it.

In keeping with the OP - one has to wonder if Wills would have taken a Johnson fight.

Personally I doubt he would bother. Jeannette in New York or Langford anywhere, woukd likely have sold better than a Wills-Johndon fight in '22 or '23.

Johnson was never actually popular until he became the Negro threat that had to be unseated from the championship.

He filled seats with fans who wanted to see him humbled. By 1922 he had been humbled and White fans had lost interest in him.

A Wills-Johnson fight, an all Negro go, wasn't going to sell because few would have cared since Johnson was no longer a threat, in the ring or out of the ring; never popular, just hated and by '22, forgotten.

Right or wrong by 1922 he (Johnson) was reduced to a convicted felon and a has-been fighter.

Well Johnson was still a name fighter back then form 1914-1920, yet he counted to steer clear if Wills as he did Langford, Jennette and Mcvey. No fights in their prime!

IMO, Johnson vs. Wills, Langford, Jeannette or McVey would have generated interest for 1914-1940 and Jack needed the money. Heck if he fought Dillion, Norfolk or Clark you could ague that too.

Your thoughts?

[Willie Pep 229]

Well Johnson was still a name fighter back then form 1914-1920, yet he counted to steer clear if Wills as he did Langford, Jennette and Mcvey. No fights in their prime!

IMO, Johnson vs. Wills, Langford, Jeannette or McVey would have generated interest for 1914-1940 and Jack needed the money. Heck if he fought Dillion, Norfolk or Clark you could ague that too.

Your thoughts?

My thoughts. He was finished after Willard. He doesn't draw flies against anyone, never mind a packed house. It would be up to the opponent to sell tickets; he wasn't worth the trouble he always dragged along with him.

I repeat myself sorry -- once White Society stopped seeing him as a threat he stopped being marketable. He just wasn't popular except for White society's desire to hate him.

By 1920 he wasn't a 'named' fighter he was a has-been; in route to being forgotten.

[Dr. Z]

My thoughts. He was finished after Willard. He doesn't draw flies against anyone, never mind a packed house. It would be up to the opponent to sell tickets; he wasn't worth the trouble he always dragged along with him.

I repeat myself sorry -- once White Society stopped seeing him as a threat he stopped being marketable. He just wasn't popular except for White society's desire to hate him.

By 1920 he wasn't a 'named' fighter he was a has-been; in route to being forgotten.

Well his African American opponents and him would have drawn files for 1914-1918. Wills, Langford, Jeannette and Mcvey. There were some other top white fighters to fight post 1914. Gunboat Smith, Dillion, Fulton, Levinsky, and Gibbons to name five! IMO, he was still marketable. But as it was he did not fight any of them. Those fight would have filled the seats which back then was the primary gate / purse generator.

This topic is newer ground here.

[Willie Pep 229]

Well his African American opponents and him would have drawn files for 1914-1918. Wills, Langford, Jeannette and Mcvey. There were some other top white fighters to fight post 1914. Gunboat Smith, Dillion, Fulton, Levinsky, and Gibbons to name five! IMO, he was still marketable. But as it was he did not fight any of them. Those fight would have filled the seats which back then was the primary gate / purse generator.

This topic is newer ground here.

Maybe on an undercard, yes!

I could see him being brought in against the likes of Smith or Gibbons but I doubt JJ woukd take such a lowely position after having been at the top.

That is an interesting thought. How many ex-champions took undercard slots? Certainly if so they would have likely been lightweight fighters. I can't see a former HW Champion taking a lower position.

Usually today with multiple straps avaiable they sell the fight as having two main events.

But relality is, the guy who fights last is the true main event and we all know it.

Can't bring myself to think that any 1922 promoter would have tried JJ as a main event. Too much trouble, for a maybe gate.

[travestyny]

Yeah man, I blew that myth apart. I found the original article, the other fantasy fights by them, the original author explaining in no uncertain terms it was the first of a fantasy series and not to be taken seriously, the magazine that reprinted the story without the fantasy caveat to create the myth in the 80s, what source they claimed, and a copy of that source that, shocker, states right at the beginning it's a fantasy fight.

There's a thread all about it. It's blown to ****, but even in that thread Queenie's talking about it happened doe ... no proof or anything. Just doing his normal nuh-huh bull. I'd love to know why he resists so much but he never shares. He just says you wrong tee-hee and ****s off.

No one here takes Queenie seriously. He's the resident clown, unfortunately for him.

[travestyny]

Kearns used the purported $1,000,000 offer from Mexico City as a stall while he beat the bushes out west looking for a fight away from Rickard.

He (Kearns) claimed he was talking to Mexico but never followed it up with either action or even rhetoric. Just fluff.

Johnson had done nothing of worth between 1915-1922 so Dempsey didn't need the color line to blow off Johndon. No one wanted the fight except Johnson.

He (Johnson) had become a non-entity and no one was taking him seriously.

As I said in an earlier post Rickard showed the Johnson-Jeffries fight in 1921 in Chicago as a lead-in to the Dempsey-Carpentier film.

The audience ignored the fight and talked over it.

In keeping with the OP - one has to wonder if Wills would have taken a Johnson fight.

Personally I doubt he would bother. Jeannette in New York or Langford anywhere, woukd likely have sold better than a Wills-Johndon fight in '22 or '23.

Johnson was never actually popular until he became the Negro threat that had to be unseated from the championship.

He filled seats with fans who wanted to see him humbled. By 1922 he had been humbled and White fans had lost interest in him.

A Wills-Johnson fight, an all Negro go, wasn't going to sell because few would have cared since Johnson was no longer a threat, in the ring or out of the ring; never popular, just hated and by '22, forgotten.

Right or wrong by 1922 he (Johnson) was reduced to a convicted felon and a has-been fighter.

I agree Dempsey didn't need the color line to avoid a fight with Johnson as he was far past it. That's why it was so curious that he would go that route to deny him a shot. I think it's because Wills was still on the horizon and he wanted to make it clear he wouldn't give Wills a shot either. I'll see if I an fish out the statement, but it might have been the time that Dempsey spoke about both Johnson and Wills.


Johnson did agree to a fight with Wills. The New Jersey commission wouldn't allow it. They knew Johnson was done.

[travestyny]

Well Johnson was still a name fighter back then form 1914-1920, yet he counted to steer clear if Wills as he did Langford, Jennette and Mcvey. No fights in their prime!

IMO, Johnson vs. Wills, Langford, Jeannette or McVey would have generated interest for 1914-1940 and Jack needed the money. Heck if he fought Dillion, Norfolk or Clark you could ague that too.

Your thoughts?

Johnson and Wills did agree to fight. The commission wouldn't allow it.

[Ivich]

I agree Dempsey didn't need the color line to avoid a fight with Johnson as he was far past it. That's why it was so curious that he would go that route to deny him a shot. I think it's because Wills was still on the horizon and he wanted to make it clear he wouldn't give Wills a shot either. I'll see if I an fish out the statement, but it might have been the time that Dempsey spoke about both Johnson and Wills.


Johnson did agree to a fight with Wills. The New Jersey commission wouldn't allow it. They knew Johnson was done.

Its also a matter of public record that Johnson signed contracts to fight,McVey and Langford in Australia and Jeannette in the US,.
Johnson's last hurrah was his heroic stand against Willard,after that he was a back number, fighting for eating money against trial horses.wherever he could get a purse,in whichever country would entertain him.

Why a poster insists on bringing him into nearly every thread is a mystery to me ,or at least it would be if I was unaware of his hate agenda towards Johnson.


No matter, Johnson's name won't be brought into any new threads of mine, coz there ain't gonna be any!

[Dr. Z]

Johnson and Wills did agree to fight. The commission wouldn't allow it.

They did? When? That is new to me. A link of news clipping is requested.

[travestyny]

They did? When? That is new to me. A link of news clipping is requested.

Have you read Unforgivable Blackness? It was reported on there.

I'll try to see if there were any newspaper articles about it in a few, but I can probably find it in the book and share it more quickly.