Who Wins And Why: Clay vs Ali?

[Slugfester]

I am sure they already wrote letters about this, but I did not see them. For this letter, let the contestant be called Clay up through the first Liston fight, and Ali after that. More exact, let's make that Clay of the Liston fight against Ali of the Foreman fight. What are the reasons you think one would prevail over the other?

[markusmod]

Very hard to say. Most of Ali's most memorable performances were post-ban, but Clay looked like an unstoppable force.

[JAB5239]

I am sure they already wrote letters about this, but I did not see them. For this letter, let the contestant be called Clay up through the first Liston fight, and Ali after that. More exact, let's make that Clay of the Liston fight against Ali of the Foreman fight. What are the reasons you think one would prevail over the other?

With these to versions I have to say Clay. That speed killed, and against Liston he fought his fight. I don't Think Ali coulddraw him in to rope a dope him or is even fast enough to counter him effectively if he does. Clay was a combination of speed, will and confidence the night he fought Liston.

[mrbig1]

One is faster and one is smarter. Clay may have been too fast for the great Ali.

[Slugfester]

I don't Think Ali coulddraw him in to rope a dope him or is even fast enough to counter him effectively if he does.

We have the same reasons. I don't think the ropes even matter. Clay probably beats him inside, too, if it came to that. Speed works inside too. It would just be a tougher fight that way. Amazing that a less-than-his-best Ali could build an untouchable legacy though.

[Willie Pep 229]

Clay UD

[Slugfester]

I think we have the two best-ever heavyweights matched here.

[Slugfester]

I pick Clay too, makng it unanimous so far.

[JAB5239]

We have the same reasons. I don't think the ropes even matter. Clay probably beats him inside, too, if it came to that. Speed works inside too. It would just be a tougher fight that way. Amazing that a less-than-his-best Ali could build an untouchable legacy though.

If only he wasn't unjustly banned.....what could have been!

[Willie Pep 229]

If only he wasn't unjustly banned.....what could have been!

He wasn't unjustly banned. He fought as late as March 1967 and was convicted on June 20th.

Now the question at hand goes well beyond merely Cassius Clay; is a man allowed to practice his trade while on appeal of a conviction?

It is a no brainer, IF you can afford bail you can continue to work while awaiting trial. But what about after conviction?

Would the NFL allow a convicted, but on appeal player to play? Would that be unjust?

I believe the NFL has barred players merely on charges, even before conviction. But the NFL is a private corporation.

Ali was being denied a license by State commissions (I think.) So that may be constitutionally different.

Certainly there are professions we would not allow a convicted, but on appeal, man do, e.g. almost all civil jobs.

Ali did eventually get to fight three fights in 1970-71 (Quarry/Bonavena/Frazier) while on appeal, but still convicted. The Supreme Court didn't overturn Ali's conviction until after the Frazier fight.

So there is quite a duplicity here which I believe is realted to how popular was, and unpopular the Vietnam War became.

But exactly what rights does a convicted man on appeal have?

It is sad but had Ali sold out his convictions he would have lost lesser time to his career. They would have probably have let him defend one or two more times after induction (like Louis did) and then spend one year in some morale building role and be fighting again by early 1969.

Complete cooperation with the system would probably have only cost him the 1968 season of campaigning.

Too bad he was a man of conviction; too bad he got fucked by Project 100,000.