Who Wins And Why: Clay vs Ali?

[JAB5239]

He wasn't unjustly banned. He fought as late as March 1967 and was convicted on June 20th.

Now the question at hand goes well beyond merely Cassius Clay; is a man allowed to practice his trade while on appeal of a conviction?

It is a no brainer, IF you can afford bail you can continue to work while awaiting trial. But what about after conviction?

Would the NFL allow a convicted, but on appeal player to play? Would that be unjust?

I believe the NFL has barred players merely on charges, even before conviction. But the NFL is a private corporation.

Ali was being denied a license by State commissions (I think.) So that may be constitutionally different.

Certainly there are professions we would not allow a convicted, but on appeal, man do, e.g. almost all civil jobs.

Ali did eventually get to fight three fights in 1970-71 (Quarry/Bonavena/Frazier) while on appeal, but still convicted. The Supreme Court didn't overturn Ali's conviction until after the Frazier fight.

So there is quite a duplicity here which I believe is realted to how popular was, and unpopular the Vietnam War became.

But exactly what rights does a convicted man on appeal have?

It is sad but had Ali sold out his convictions he would have lost lesser time to his career. They would have probably have let him defend one or two more times after induction (like Louis did) and then spend one year in some morale building role and be fighting again by early 1969.

Complete cooperation with the system would probably have only cost him the 1968 season of campaigning.

Too bad he was a man of conviction; too bad he got fucked by Project 100,000.

The ban was unjust becuse he was being persecuted for being ****** and outspoken. There are many different cases of conscientious objectors either denied or granted the right to not serve after being drafted. The fact that Ali's decision was overturned tells me his initial ban was unjust and cost him bot monetarily and years of his physical prime.

[Slugfester]

We would not have seen a loss for a long while, to answer Jab's question. No way Frazier wins their first fight. He wouldn't have even known where Ali was.

[Nash out]

Draw. They are the same man under a different name. Clay is Ali, Ali is Clay. Nash out

[Willie Pep 229]

Draw. They are the same man under a different name. Clay is Ali, Ali is Clay. Nash out

What about identical twins, trained by the same team, with exactly the same opportunities and experiences?

If we matched them would those things that are usually impossible to really see, "the intangibles," suddenly be obvious?

Courage, Ring IQ, conditioning, (what else?)

I know once in the amateurs, back the late 60s, twins made it to the AAU finals but were not allowed to fight; became joint champions.

P.S.. It was a brother rule nothing to do with twins.

[Nash out]

What about identical twins, trained by the same team, with exactly the same opportunities and experiences?

If we matched them would those things that are usually impossible to really see, "the intangibles," suddenly be obvious?

Courage, Ring IQ, conditioning, (what else?)

I know once in the amateurs, back the late 60s, twins made it to the AAU finals but were not allowed to fight; became joint champions.

P.S.. It was a brother rule nothing to do with twins.

Whilst the twins would be very closely matched, a difference is they do not share the same brain, they have different brains, whereas Ali and Clay are the exact same person and have the exact same brain, he was prime in parts of his Clay career and parts as Ali, so it just depends on what you think and what you consider his best wins, just like for example, who would win between defensive Fury from the Wlad fight, or attack minded Fury from Wilder 2, especially? So, I said draw as part joke, but if it was possible, it would be an extremely close fight, just as would be both very different versions of Fury, but factor in, they would both be using the same brain to adapt to each other during the fight, and that would likely change everything and even it all out, if this was a possible thing. Nash out

[The D3vil]

'66 Ali is the best version of Ali, so I'm picking the guy who demolished Cleveland Williams & Zora Folley.

[Incapable]

Clay gets a decision

[Willie Pep 229]

Clay gets a decision

Yea Clay will figure out how to land his lightning fast jab on Ali; Ali's face will be swollen by fight's end.

Clay by UD.

P.S. Ali won't be able to bait the young Clay.

[QueensburyRules]

- - The Clay that won't beat Ali is the Clay smashed up by Sir 'enery.