Tunney-Greb 2

[JAB5239]

Where does Tunney disagree with that?I never read it? Please list the source. I want to read what Tunney says.

I have shown your his corner says he was butted multiple times they say! Besides Tunney might not remember the fight. He was cut badly form a clash or heads / head butt butt in round one! It is likely that type of damage can be caused not form Greb's first, but form ramming his head into Greb face. The worst cuts in boxing are caused form a clash of heads.

Tunney received a standing ovation from the loss of a lot of blood by going the distance in the 15 round fight.

“I categorically state that Harry Greb was not a foul fighter. In my first fight with him my nose was broken. My seconds said that Greb butted me with his head. This I do not accept as factual; and if his head was the weapon, rather than his fists, my head should not have been where it was.” –Gene Tunney

I posted the link in the other thead. Now please show me anyone but Tunney's corner saying Greb smashed Tunney's nose with his head in the first round. That is what you're trying to imply, right?

[JAB5239]

Feb 25, 1923
Muldoon Says Greb Outpointed Tunney
Newspaper Article Info Newspaper Name: New York Times Date Printed: Feb 25, 1923 Page: 20
Mulddon Says Greb Outpointed Tunney; Declares that Pittsburgh boxer should have recieved decision after title bout. CALLS THE VERDICT UNJUST. Head of Athletic Commision States that contest is closed incident, however. Greb seeks return match and expresses confidence in ability to regain Light-Heavyweight crown if given chance.

[JAB5239]

First round:
Greb leaped in with a right to the jaw and at close quarters mussed Tunney up. Greb landed a left hook on the nose which drew blood. In a clinch Greb pounded the stomach with hands. Tunney upper-cutted a right to the face as Greb came in. Tunney caught Greb coming in with a right and a left to the stomach. Greb tore in with rights and lefts to the face. The men were splattered with blood from Tunney's nose and were clinched on the ropes at the bell.

doesn't look like any mention of Greb headbutting Tunney's nose. Maybe im missing it. Am i missing it?

[Willow The Wisp]

It depends on how the fight ended. If all we are doing is flipping the controversial UD to Greb then . . .

. . . maybe Greb gets the Carpentier fight in '24 but -->

1. The second Tunney-Greb fight was in late February 1923. By then Dempsey was already signed to fight Gibbons in Shelby on July 4th and Rickard had spent most of 1923 building up Firpo for a title shot against Dempsey for fall 1923. So Dempsey's schedule was already filled for '23 **

2. An attempt to create a Dempsey-Greb go in '22 went bust when a Pittsburgh promoter couldn't guarantee Dempsey the 300K Kearns was demanding.

3. Plus Greb had a closer relationship with Fitzsimmons than with Rickard and Fitzsimmons wasn't able to match Rickard's guarantees back in 1920/1921:

• Fitzsimmons offered 100K (plus gate) for Dempsey-Greb
• Rickard offered 300K guaranteed for Dempsey-Carpentier

That decision was a no-brainer for Dempsey/Kearns. Easier fight for more money and Kearns always preferred cash up front, he didn't like having to depend on gate receipts.

You have to remember all this would be playing out before Rickard pulled off the first million dollar gate (Dempsey-Carpentier). Rickard had actually lost money on the Dempsey-Brennan MSG go in 1921. The Garden wasn't big enough for a Dempsey fight, Rickard realized he needed a stadium, so he built one. (Boyles Thirty Acres.)

Then of course a ringworn and tired Dempsey ran off to Hollywood in 1924.

By the time Dempsey finally returns Greb had already dropped two close decisions to Tiger Flowers and then was lost to us on the operating table in 1926.

I think to force a Dempsey fight you have to go back to the Tunney-Greb II fight and do more than just flip the UD decision.

IMHO Greb has to first dominate Tunney and then dominate Carpentier, and he has to do all that in 1923 not 1924.**

Then maybe the money would have been there for a Dempsey-Greb go in early 1924. (By then Kearns was demanding a 500K guarantee, which he got from Rickard for Firpo.)

Truth be told I really don't think Dempsey-Greb was actually ever close to happening. Just something the pundits like to write about in slow news weeks. Sorry, I know you feel that Greb deserved a shot at the HW title but I think the deal of the cards (timeline) played against it.

**Tunney and Carpentier didn't tangle until 1924.

P.S. Sorry I got so wordy but the 1922-23 season for Dempsey was a complicated one. Notice I didn't even mention Harry Wills.

Excellent response Willie Pep 229!! I cannot think of anything to add. Brilliant. If I was forced to add my two cents (and worth every penny), I'd say that from my understanding the 2nd fight was won unanimously by Tunney by scores rendered by judges Charles E. Miles, Charles Meighan and the referee Patsy Haley, and was very close, and while many in the press felt that Greb deserved the nob, a considerable (though far lesser) number disagreed with that notion. Still, writers with the esteemed NY Times, NY American and the NY Evening Telegram all scored the fight for Tunney; and the Sun, in opting for Tunney printed that "Tunney won the fight because Tunney scored more points" and that the writer took points away because "Greb clinched too often".
In their 3rd meeting in December, Tunney was a 2 to 1 betting favorite, and won nine rounds to four with two rounds even with a "steady body fire". At this point the question of deserving a fight against Dempsey was dead. In the five fight series things got worse for Greb of course, and by the conclusion of that series in March 25', the Associated Press wrote that "Whatever doubt existed as to the superiority of Gene Tunney, American light heavyweight champion, over Harry Greb, former holder of the title, was dispelled today as a result of Tunney's decisive victory over the world's middleweight titleholder here last night. Tunney gave Greb as thorough a beating as he has ever received. So completely was Greb outclassed and outfought in six of the ten rounds that he resorted to a defensive fight after the third and thereafter was guilty of persistent holding and stalling, varied only by a rare flash of offensive fighting, which Tunney quickly terminated by a devastating body attack".

[Dr. Z]

“I categorically state that Harry Greb was not a foul fighter. In my first fight with him my nose was broken. My seconds said that Greb butted me with his head. This I do not accept as factual; and if his head was the weapon, rather than his fists, my head should not have been where it was.” –Gene Tunney

I posted the link in the other thead. Now please show me anyone but Tunney's corner saying Greb smashed Tunney's nose with his head in the first round. That is what you're trying to imply, right?

Tunney wanted another fight, and he fell into being out of it at the end of the fight. The press says Greb cliched Tunney a lot. Were you the guy who pointed out others clinching and frowning upon it? I think so.

• NY Sun: Gave Tunney the fight because Tunney scored more points yet then states that Greb scored more points but that the writer took points away because Greb clinched too often...

So he cliched too often? You reply to that is?

[JAB5239]

Tunney wanted another fight, and he fell into being out of it at the end of the fight. The press says Greb cliched Tunney a lot. Were you the guy who pointed out others clinching and frowning upon it? I think so.

• NY Sun: Gave Tunney the fight because Tunney scored more points yet then states that Greb scored more points but that the writer took points away because Greb clinched too often...

So he cliched too often? You reply to that is?

Before we get to your question, what does your response have to do with the quoted post? You never answered the question or showed me where anyone on the Tunney team said Harry smashed Gene's nose with his head? You're so desperate to label him a dirty fighter you're making claims with nothing to back them up.

[Dr. Z]

Before we get to your question, what does your response have to do with the quoted post? You never answered the question or showed me where anyone on the Tunney team said Harry smashed Gene's nose with his head? You're so desperate to label him a dirty fighter you're making claims with nothing to back them up.

No I am saying he was a dirty fouler, not the worst one of all time mind you. I agree with lots of boxing writers and the IBOF when they said this:

http://www.ibhof.com/pages/about/ind...imer/greb.html

I have researched the man enough to say that, not that I'm an expert on him. The point of Greb using his head was mentioned by Tunneys's corner and other writers. if you want a recent one I will say Bert Sugar.

Now are you against clinching to the point of pointing another out another thread? Or do you give Greb a pass?

Greb lifted the middleweight title from Johnny Wilson in a roughhouser during which Referee Jack O'Sullivan stepped between these rugged practitioners and, glowering at Greb, asked him what he thought he was doing. "Gouging Johnny in the eye, can't you see?" Greb said haughtily. Satisfied with this explanation, O'Sullivan moved away, and the fighters returned to work

Sure, sure going another fighter in the eye is clean.

More on the head butt in the first fight.

Greb handed Tunney the only loss of his career. It began with what some called a head butt that broke Tunney’s nose and ended, 15 rounds later, with Tunney barely on his feet

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/03/b...shinsky.t.html

Tunney's next fight against a big-name opponent was at Madison Square Garden on May 23, 1922, against future Hall of Fame inductee Harry Greb, a rugged and relentless slugger from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Known as the "Human Windmill," Greb would later win the World Middleweight Championship. The opening ten rounds of the fight between the ultimate slugger and the ultimate boxer proved closely fought, despite Greb's constant fouling. A head-butt in round one broke Tunney's nose, understandably disrupting his concentration.

https://www.facebook.com/Heavyweight...9227015188032/

There's more if I look. Still think Greb was a clean fighter??? Asking you this as well as what do you think of his clinching? I have nothing to back them up you say? Do you read my replies? They all say the same thing. Greb was considered dirty and he butted Tunney as stated.

[JAB5239]

No I am saying he was a dirty fouler, not the worst one of all time mind you. I agree with lots of boxing writers and the IBOF when they said this:

http://www.ibhof.com/pages/about/ind...imer/greb.html

I have researched the man enough to say that, not that I'm an expert on him. The point of Greb using his head was mentioned by Tunneys's corner and other writers. if you want a recent one I will say Bert Sugar.

Now are you against clinching to the point of pointing another out another thread? Or do you give Greb a pass?



Sure, sure going another fighter in the eye is clean.

More on the head butt in the first fight.



https://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/03/b...shinsky.t.html




https://www.facebook.com/Heavyweight...9227015188032/

There's more if I look. Still think Greb was a clean fighter??? Asking you this as well as what do you think of his clinching? I have nothing to back them up you say? Do you read my replies? They all say the same thing. Greb was considered dirty and he butted Tunney as stated.

Bert Sugar?

Come on, you gotta do better than a guy who went to his grave saying Willie Pep won a round without throwing a punch.

So you believe Tunney's corner, but you think Gene himself is lying?

The New York times said it started with what some believe. Who are the "some"? Why aren't they sure? Even if it were true, was it intentional?

I've read the round by round of the fight. i think its beautiful though how youve picked out that one quote about clinching but have left out all the rest. And please....if Greb ever clinched like Wlad he'd be ridiculed to this day for it, just like Wlad.

Let me help you post the rest of those ringside opinions. You know, the 15 saying he should have one compared to the 4 that said Tunney should have won, and the 4 that saw it a draw?

• • yet then states that Greb scored more points but that the writer took points away because Greb clinched too often...
  • The NY Evening Telegram: Gave the fight to Tunney
  • NY American: gave it to Tunney
  • NY Times: gave it to Tunney
  • NY Evening World: Scored it a Draw and added that Tunney did not deserve the victory despite the writer stating he was a great admirer of Tunney's
  • NY Tribune: called it a draw stating the decision met with much disapproval, writing for the same paper Grantland Rice called it a poor decision
  • NY Herald: Gave it to Greb, another writer for the paper called it a draw
  • Evening Journal: Gave it to Greb
  • Evening Mail: Gave it to Greb
  • Philly Ledger: Gave it to Greb
  • NY Daily News: Stated a draw would have been a better decision.
  • Pittsburgh Post: Gave Tunney only two rounds.
  • Pittsburgh Gazette Times: Gave it to Greb
  • Pittsburgh Press: Gave it Greb

Total: 4 votes for Tunney, 15 votes for Greb, and 4 votes for a draw.

"Realizing there was some justice in Greb's claim of a bad decision, I offered him a return engagement." -Gene Tunney, A Man Must Fight, P. 162

[Ivich]

“I categorically state that Harry Greb was not a foul fighter. In my first fight with him my nose was broken. My seconds said that Greb butted me with his head. This I do not accept as factual; and if his head was the weapon, rather than his fists, my head should not have been where it was.” –Gene Tunney

I posted the link in the other thead. Now please show me anyone but Tunney's corner saying Greb smashed Tunney's nose with his head in the first round. That is what you're trying to imply, right?

I've read Tunney's account of the fight,he doesn't mention being butted.Your quote is as conclusive as you could wish for imo.

To add to the original query Carpentier wanted no part of Greb,at any price.Harry would have crucified him imo.

[Ivich]

Bert Sugar?

Come on, you gotta do better than a guy who went to his grave saying Willie Pep won a round without throwing a punch.

So you believe Tunney's corner, but you think Gene himself is lying?

The New York times said it started with what some believe. Who are the "some"? Why aren't they sure? Even if it were true, was it intentional?

I've read the round by round of the fight. i think its beautiful though how youve picked out that one quote about clinching but have left out all the rest. And please....if Greb ever clinched like Wlad he'd be ridiculed to this day for it, just like Wlad.

Let me help you post the rest of those ringside opinions. You know, the 15 saying he should have one compared to the 4 that said Tunney should have won, and the 4 that saw it a draw?

• • yet then states that Greb scored more points but that the writer took points away because Greb clinched too often...
  • The NY Evening Telegram: Gave the fight to Tunney
  • NY American: gave it to Tunney
  • NY Times: gave it to Tunney
  • NY Evening World: Scored it a Draw and added that Tunney did not deserve the victory despite the writer stating he was a great admirer of Tunney's
  • NY Tribune: called it a draw stating the decision met with much disapproval, writing for the same paper Grantland Rice called it a poor decision
  • NY Herald: Gave it to Greb, another writer for the paper called it a draw
  • Evening Journal: Gave it to Greb
  • Evening Mail: Gave it to Greb
  • Philly Ledger: Gave it to Greb
  • NY Daily News: Stated a draw would have been a better decision.
  • Pittsburgh Post: Gave Tunney only two rounds.
  • Pittsburgh Gazette Times: Gave it to Greb
  • Pittsburgh Press: Gave it Greb

Total: 4 votes for Tunney, 15 votes for Greb, and 4 votes for a draw.

"Realizing there was some justice in Greb's claim of a bad decision, I offered him a return engagement." -Gene Tunney, A Man Must Fight, P. 162

Bert Sugar was a salesman and repeater of long exploded myths.