Since this forum is so obsessed with weight

[them_apples]

Right both probably weighed heavier come fight time ,which makes the weight disparity between them and Louis even more glaring.Any visible fat on McCall or Rahman in those fights?

no they likely didn’t weigh more on fight night imo. If anything by the 90s they were inflating themselves. Mcall and rahman were much smaller than Lewis but somehow weighed similar. In the ring rahman or mcall were not huge, Rahman doesnt even look huge against Toney. Toney was a middleweight.

im telling you most of this weight stuff is bull**** and wouldn’t even matter. Its how you carry the weight and what type of weight it is.

watch holyfield vs Rahman. Holyfield in frame is very close in size to Louis, maybe even smaller than Louis considering holy started at 175 and looked smaller than Louis at this weight. Louis has a big head, legs and fists.

if we look at old Louis reffing quarry vs Frazier, hes probably heavier in retirement, at least 230-240 lbs - not in fighting shape sure - but since you are convinced Louis is bernard Hopkins size use that to understand he isn’t. He would looks just like Holyfield did vs Rahman, only different proportions. To make it sweeter just use the 218 lb version of Louis that fought Charles and there you have it, louis is a perfectly sized heavyweight but what matters is a whole complex list of other things.

[Ivich]

no they likely didn’t weigh more on fight night imo. If anything by the 90s they were inflating themselves. Mcall and rahman were much smaller than Lewis but somehow weighed similar. In the ring rahman or mcall were not huge, Rahman doesnt even look huge against Toney. Toney was a middleweight.

im telling you most of this weight stuff is bull**** and wouldn’t even matter. Its how you carry the weight and what type of weight it is.

watch holyfield vs Rahman. Holyfield in frame is very close in size to Louis, maybe even smaller than Louis considering holy started at 175 and looked smaller than Louis at this weight. Louis has a big head, legs and fists.

if we look at old Louis reffing quarry vs Frazier, hes probably heavier in retirement, at least 230-240 lbs - not in fighting shape sure - but since you are convinced Louis is bernard Hopkins size use that to understand he isn’t. He would looks just like Holyfield did vs Rahman, only different proportions. To make it sweeter just use the 218 lb version of Louis that fought Charles and there you have it, louis is a perfectly sized heavyweight but what matters is a whole complex list of other things.

I'm convinced Louis was six feet one and a half inches tall, and I proved it.
Holyfield built himself up on Nautilus Machines etc to the extent that he was stronger than Tyson when they fought and certainly heavier than Louis
If "weight stuff was bull ****," there would be no need for weight classes.Champions would not stipulate that other champions came in at a specified weight and if the contract was not adhered to , either pulled out of the fight or received a cash penalty .Guys like Ray Leonard would not have insisted his opponents came in under a weight limit.I don't want to be rude but your argument is totally illogical.

[them_apples]

I'm convinced Louis was six feet one and a half inches tall, and I proved it.
Holyfield built himself up on Nautilus Machines etc to the extent that he was stronger than Tyson when they fought and certainly heavier than Louis
If "weight stuff was bull ****," there would be no need for weight classes.Champions would not stipulate that other champions came in at a specified weight and if the contract was not adhered to , either pulled out of the fight or received a cash penalty .Guys like Ray Leonard would not have insisted his opponents came in under a weight limit.I don't want to be rude but your argument is totally illogical.

check my other post then. Louis vs charles

And no, its different than other wieght classes because for 2 reasons:

They are making weight, welterweights for example are squeezing into the weight class, and even then some still have advantages over others.

At heavyweight, some of these guys are carrying way too much weight, because they have no limit, and it's not even beneficial. The other factor is as we get heavier, men get taller - but tall people don't scale the same. Some are tall and thin, weak bodied. Being taller makes you heavier, especially if you are carrying chub. Some tall guys are actually built rather fragile, and even when lifting weights, the chin and other aspects remains the same. Some shorter heavyweights are built like bulls and very sturdy.

It's like in the wild when a 35 lb wolversine can kill an alpha Male wolf thats weighs 4x as much, esp if caught outside its den

I'm actually surprised how stuck you are on this topic. Theres probably more in ring proof of what I'm saying than what you are saying. Even with modern heavies this didn't ring true, both super champs lost to smaller guys, and not just smaller guys "small" heavyweights. 6 ft and 6 ft3 cruisers.

Wlad = stopped by 6 ft 1 brewster
Lennox stopped by 6 ft 1 Rahman and 6 ft 2 mccall
Joshua stopped by 6 ft Ruiz and beat soundly by Usyk

Even Fury, he touched down bad when hit by cunningham, who not only was a cruiser but not even considered a puncher.

This HAS to mean something, enough for you to at least stop completely writing these guys off. Size has never been a prevailing role at heavyweight.

[Ivich]

check my other post then. Louis vs charles

And no, its different than other wieght classes because for 2 reasons:

They are making weight, welterweights for example are squeezing into the weight class, and even then some still have advantages over others.

At heavyweight, some of these guys are carrying way too much weight, because they have no limit, and it's not even beneficial. The other factor is as we get heavier, men get taller - but tall people don't scale the same. Some are tall and thin, weak bodied. Being taller makes you heavier, especially if you are carrying chub. Some tall guys are actually built rather fragile, and even when lifting weights, the chin and other aspects remains the same. Some shorter heavyweights are built like bulls and very sturdy.

It's like in the wild when a 35 lb wolversine can kill an alpha Male wolf thats weighs 4x as much, esp if caught outside its den

I'm actually surprised how stuck you are on this topic. Theres probably more in ring proof of what I'm saying than what you are saying. Even with modern heavies this didn't ring true, both super champs lost to smaller guys, and not just smaller guys "small" heavyweights. 6 ft and 6 ft3 cruisers.

Wlad = stopped by 6 ft 1 brewster
Lennox stopped by 6 ft 1 Rahman and 6 ft 2 mccall
Joshua stopped by 6 ft Ruiz and beat soundly by Usyk

Even Fury, he touched down bad when hit by cunningham, who not only was a cruiser but not even considered a puncher.

This HAS to mean something, enough for you to at least stop completely writing these guys off. Size has never been a prevailing role at heavyweight.

Rahman is 6 ft 2 /12" and weighed 238lbs
McCall is 6ft 2in" and weighed 231 1/4lbs lbs
Ruiz was268lbs while I doubt he is his listed 6ft 2in h is probably more than 6ft
Usyk is 6ft2 3 in and weighed 221 1/4lbs lbs.


Men this size are big enough for anyone IF they are good enough.
Men 5 feet ten and185lbs are not going to beat men 45/50lbs heavier and 5 inches taller IF their abilities are equal.They can beat big fat tin cans like Humphrey Jackson 4-2-0 but that's an entirely different ball game.
Cunningham is 6ft 3in and 210lbs ,half an inch taller than Max Baer and the same weight.

[them_apples]

Rahman is 6 ft 2 /12" and weighed 238lbs
McCall is 6ft 2in" and weighed 231 1/4lbs lbs
Ruiz was268lbs while I doubt he is his listed 6ft 2in h is probably more than 6ft
Usyk is 6ft2 3 in and weighed 221 1/4lbs lbs.


Men this size are big enough for anyone IF they are good enough.
Men 5 feet ten and185lbs are not going to beat men 45/50lbs heavier and 5 inches taller IF their abilities are equal.They can beat big fat tin cans like Humphrey Jackson 4-2-0 but that's an entirely different ball game.
Cunningham is 6ft 3in and 210lbs ,half an inch taller than Max Baer and the same weight.

Ok so if their abilities are equal, I agree. But they aren’t always equal.

as for cunningham sure, but he’s still naturally smaller. Its obvious. Its like comparing Foreman to Norton. Norton built himself to 220, Foreman did it at a calorie deficit. Big difference. And even outside of that, they are 2 different fighters. We could list 50 fighters all 6 ft 3 210 and get drastically different results in strength, punching power and chin (all the physical stuff).

I don’t get why you won’t budge in your thinking. Sometimes when I spar I get in with guys 70 lbs heavier than me - if they aren’t very good it literally doesn’t matter. And one of the strongest hardest punchers I ever got in with was a middleweight. His punches were so hard they left purple bruises on my arms with 16 oz gloves on.

pacquiao was giving up 15 lbs in some of his fights, and they were absolute beat downs against men who were thouroughbred (chiseled down, not fat or blow up)

I know all things being equal the bigger man will win. But at heavyweight they aren’t always equal.

for example Joe Frazier was smaller, but also a lot more techniqually proficient than many of the bigger men he faced, like Bugner. I dont think bigger men can fight to that level of technicality. Theres big guys with decent skills, but never elite level. The closest we got was Lennox, but even he was rather stiff, lacked headmovement and all that- but being big he got a free pass. Don’t even get me started on Fury. He’s skillful for 6 ft 8 dude, but he couldn’t hold Alis jockstrap regarding the same style.

[QueensburyRules]

- - Jus sayin'...

[billeau2]

I'm convinced Louis was six feet one and a half inches tall, and I proved it.
Holyfield built himself up on Nautilus Machines etc to the extent that he was stronger than Tyson when they fought and certainly heavier than Louis
If "weight stuff was bull ****," there would be no need for weight classes.Champions would not stipulate that other champions came in at a specified weight and if the contract was not adhered to , either pulled out of the fight or received a cash penalty .Guys like Ray Leonard would not have insisted his opponents came in under a weight limit.I don't want to be rude but your argument is totally illogical.

Keep in mind that the heavyweight division is an open weight class.

[Ivich]

Keep in mind that the heavyweight division is an open weight class.

Yes I think was aware of that.Im not dis*****g than many of today's heavies are overweight ,too lazy to get in real shape.My position is all things being equal, the bigger man will generally beat the smaller,and thats because of several factors.The ability to absorb the smaller mans power.
The smaller man being more affected by the bigger mans power.
The bigger man being able to land punches whilst the smaller man is still out of range.
The smaller man finding himself tied up inside and rendered ineffectual by the bigger stronger man.
The smaller man getting tired tugging and mauling with a guy who significantly outweighs him.
These are not absolutes ,of course some bigger men do not have the power of some who are smaller.
Valuev was not a puncher, neither was Carnera.but without their size neither would have been successful in the first place although in Carnera's case it was his size that was the attraction to the hyenas that leeched on to him and not his ability.
Many huge men have been ****.Potgeiter,McBride, Beattie,Jones,White, and Campolo being some examples.
A man say 6 ft 3 in and 215/220lbs is big enough for anyone PROVIDING he has the necessary ability to accompany his size.

I'd pick Ali to beat every heavyweight I've ever seen simply because he was brilliant!

A small fighter 5 feet 10in,185lbs with a tendency to cut,no outstanding skill ,average at best handspeed ,slowish feet, and a tiny reach isn't beating.
Liston
Foreman
Holmes
Ali
Bowe
Vitali
Wlad
Fury
imo

[them_apples]

Yes I think was aware of that.Im not dis*****g than many of today's heavies are overweight ,too lazy to get in real shape.My position is all things being equal, the bigger man will generally beat the smaller,and thats because of several factors.The ability to absorb the smaller mans power.
The smaller man being more affected by the bigger mans power.
The bigger man being able to land punches whilst the smaller man is still out of range.
The smaller man finding himself tied up inside and rendered ineffectual by the bigger stronger man.
The smaller man getting tired tugging and mauling with a guy who significantly outweighs him.
These are not absolutes ,of course some bigger men do not have the power of some who are smaller.
Valuev was not a puncher, neither was Carnera.but without their size neither would have been successful in the first place although in Carnera's case it was his size that was the attraction to the hyenas that leeched on to him and not his ability.
Many huge men have been ****.Potgeiter,McBride, Beattie,Jones,White, and Campolo being some examples.
A man say 6 ft 3 in and 215/220lbs is big enough for anyone PROVIDING he has the necessary ability to accompany his size.

I'd pick Ali to beat every heavyweight I've ever seen simply because he was brilliant!

A small fighter 5 feet 10in,185lbs with a tendency to cut,no outstanding skill ,average at best handspeed ,slowish feet, and a tiny reach isn't beating.
Liston
Foreman
Holmes
Ali
Bowe
Vitali
Wlad
Fury
imo

You sound like one of his haters back in the 50s. Why don't you name some of his qualities?

Top level stamina
top level conditioning (can take lots if punishment and not fade)
Very hard puncher with both hands and when in very close
Awkward style that sees him not engage while outside, only when inside (he crouches very low outside and rarely goes jab for jab, forcing opponents to fight him inside) This is why even Ali looked funny trying to box him

you can’t watch a highlight reel of these guys beating up completely different fighters and some how relate it to Marciano.

[Ivich]

You sound like one of his haters back in the 50s. Why don't you name some of his qualities?

Top level stamina
top level conditioning (can take lots if punishment and not fade)
Very hard puncher with both hands and when in very close
Awkward style that sees him not engage while outside, only when inside (he crouches very low outside and rarely goes jab for jab, forcing opponents to fight him inside) This is why even Ali looked funny trying to box him

you can’t watch a highlight reel of these guys beating up completely different fighters and some how relate it to Marciano.

Marciano's stamina was on display against OLD MEN.
Can take lots of punishment from old cruisers,can he take lots of punishment from your super heavies like Lewis, Bowe.Wlad ,Vitali? The fact that he proved he could take lots of punishment against these old men indicates his defence was POROUS.

"I couldnt avoid his jabs I just had to take them." Marciano after his fight with the 37 years old Louis.

I pick Marciano to beat Joe Frazier that's where I rate him!
I was watching Marciano's fight back in the 60's.
Fan boys always get around to the phoney computer fight sooner or later.PATHETIC!