Another boxing Myth: Jake Lamotta was a face first brawler who got hit tons

[GhostofDempsey]

LaMotta likened his ability to roll with a punch like catching a fast ball. When you catch a ball, you bring the glove into you as it hits the glove, to take some of the sting off the pitch. If you just keep your hand out in front of you and take the full force of the pitch it will hurt your hand. That's what he did with punches. As they reached his face he'd move with the punch to take some of the steam off the punch. Lots of fighters were taught this technique. Once a fighter's reflexes begin to slow down they can no longer use this technique quite as effectively and start to take the full brute force of the punches.

[QueensburyRules]

I feel, paradoxically or with a twisted logic LaMotta's greatest achievement (or ATG legacy) isn't best expressed by his title win over Cerdan, but his multiple loses to to SRR. As I said above it took 60 rounds to figure out who was the better fighter. Considering we're talking SRR, that's an ATG resume in itself.

Sort of feel the same way about Tommy Hearns. His greatness is best expressed by his loses not his wins.

- - Ouch!

Gonna have see Tommy vs Jake in Valhalla to see that comment settled.

[billeau2]

Bit like Marciano in that folks pretend he had the chin to walk through guys like Charles. No, no one does, he's just underrated in defense is all.

Tommy Ryan is your guy for showing just how powerful the crouch can be. A very underrated technique in my opinion.


If you're lucking for your first instance of attrition that's Glaukos.

He was not trained from a young age and was being beaten badly when his father shouted to him. He mustered himself and leveled his opponent in one punch. This was so shocking he was deified as a river god.

Glaukos is a fun read. Check my thread on champions for dates and places.

M,
For some reason the system won't let me give you "likes" lol.

[billeau2]

thats whats he said. I can think of all sorts of things fighters say. Jake may have given off the persona that he wasn’t scared to be hit. Jake also himself said he would ride the shots and thats why he can speak clearly in old age. We can also watch tapes of him doing this.

zivic, take everything he says with a grain of salt.

Zivic and LaMotta both had a great sense of humor. LaMotta once said Sugar hit him so much he got diabetes lol. And well into his later years Jake was a great zinger!

[Ivich]

M,
For some reason the system won't let me give you "likes" lol.

I remember him on Classic ,think he called himself Glaukos or something similar? Glucose?
He was always trying to stimulate debate about the ancient cestus fighters etc .nobody gave a **** about them and he drifted away, or was invited to leave,I can't remember which ,and its unimportant.
He used to fly into rages at the slightest thing ,it became something of a standing joke there
.He thought he was some great expert who was much too good for the rest of us,and didn't need any encouragement to tell everyone! The first couple of posts he made,I thought he was having a wind up,then I realised he was deadly serious!
He used to crack me up ,rambling on about some guys called Mythos or Sonoros. from the 4th Century BC or whenever, whom nobody had ever heard of and couldn't care less about.
Meanwhile there were real knowledgeable posters there such as Henry Hascup,Joe Rein,Springs Toledo,Steve Compton,Adam Pollack,Clay Moyle ,Rumsfeld ,Ted Spoon etc, with whom people wanted to exchange opinions and compare notes with.

The system obviously has a more advanced quality control than you do! lol

[billeau2]

I remember him on Classic he was always trying to stimulate debate about the ancient cestus fighters etc .nobody have **** about them and he drifted or was pushed off.

You need avenues to look at these historical developments. Unfortunately often people would make outrageous claims to have been "taught by ancient masters" in various "arts." I remember I was training one of the more well known Chinese boxing teachers in San Francisco, I was teaching in China Town and there was this kid claiming to teach ancient Persian Martial Arts. I tended to be "live and let live" but my friend was not. So he called the kid out politely asking him to demonstrate his art... I don't need to parley what we saw. I actually was the demo guy for the kid... Nothing Persian and nothing fundamentally sound...

But there are guys who are legit, willing to admit they are reconstructing an art from materials... Jim Arvantis, a Greek American did wonderous things reconstructing Greek Pankration Free fighting. He was a well rounded martial artist before MMA was a thing and he used that to look at documents and learn technical applications for Hellinistic fighting for glory. Unfortunately he is the minority.

Marg really puts a lot of work into documenting stuff. The real tell tale sign that he is legit imo is that you can trace his work, he gives sources. Is it important to modern (relatively modern) prize fighting? One point that Marg emphasizes and I agree with, is the singular approach to fighting for individual glory. I mean the great fighters in most empires were appropriated by the ruling elite... Their powers belonged to Pharoah, or some such theocracy. In some societies they are appropriated by generals.

Interesting parallel: In Asia, in the monasteries that people revere as having great fighters, like the Shao Lin... Fighting was used as a way to steer violence amongst the dumber monks. So by organizing fighting into a system, you could have some control... When a big dumb ox was angry, you might ultimately not be able to say "Hey Stop!!!" but you could say "ok you and the other guy fight with these rules and teach others so we can all fight the bandits in the forest off."

My point being, this idea to fight for personal glory is an interesting development. It is why the Marquis of Queensbury was able to develop a way to handle disputes with no swords... it is also how Fig initially derived fist fighting from a fencing vocabulary.

[QueensburyRules]

I remember him on Classic ,think he called himself Glaukos or something similar? Glucose?
He was always trying to stimulate debate about the ancient cestus fighters etc .nobody gave a **** about them and he drifted away, or was invited to leave,I can't remember which ,and its unimportant.
He used to fly into rages at the slightest thing ,it became something of a standing joke there
.He thought he was some great expert who was much too good for the rest of us,and didn't need any encouragement to tell everyone! The first couple of posts he made,I thought he was having a wind up,then I realised he was deadly serious!
He used to crack me up ,rambling on about some guys called Mythos or Sonoros. from the 4th Century BC or whenever, whom nobody had ever heard of and couldn't care less about.
Meanwhile there were real knowledgeable posters there such as Henry Hascup,Joe Rein,Springs Toledo,Steve Crompton,Adam Pollack,Clay Moyle ,Rumsfeld etc with whom people wanted to exchange opinions and compare notes with.

The system obviously has a more advanced quality control than you do! lol

- - Henry Hascup may well have an encyclopedic memory.

[Ivich]

You need avenues to look at these historical developments. Unfortunately often people would make outrageous claims to have been "taught by ancient masters" in various "arts." I remember I was training one of the more well known Chinese boxing teachers in San Francisco, I was teaching in China Town and there was this kid claiming to teach ancient Persian Martial Arts. I tended to be "live and let live" but my friend was not. So he called the kid out politely asking him to demonstrate his art... I don't need to parley what we saw. I actually was the demo guy for the kid... Nothing Persian and nothing fundamentally sound...

But there are guys who are legit, willing to admit they are reconstructing an art from materials... Jim Arvantis, a Greek American did wonderous things reconstructing Greek Pankration Free fighting. He was a well rounded martial artist before MMA was a thing and he used that to look at documents and learn technical applications for Hellinistic fighting for glory. Unfortunately he is the minority.

Marg really puts a lot of work into documenting stuff. The real tell tale sign that he is legit imo is that you can trace his work, he gives sources. Is it important to modern (relatively modern) prize fighting? One point that Marg emphasizes and I agree with, is the singular approach to fighting for individual glory. I mean the great fighters in most empires were appropriated by the ruling elite... Their powers belonged to Pharoah, or some such theocracy. In some societies they are appropriated by generals.

Interesting parallel: In Asia, in the monasteries that people revere as having great fighters, like the Shao Lin... Fighting was used as a way to steer violence amongst the dumber monks. So by organizing fighting into a system, you could have some control... When a big dumb ox was angry, you might ultimately not be able to say "Hey Stop!!!" but you could say "ok you and the other guy fight with these rules and teach others so we can all fight the bandits in the forest off."

My point being, this idea to fight for personal glory is an interesting development. It is why the Marquis of Queensbury was able to develop a way to handle disputes with no swords... it is also how Fig initially derived fist fighting from a fencing vocabulary.

There is a guy ,Xu Xiaodong, who has made career out of challenging fake martial artists to a fight I don't think he has been beaten yet,you can find his bouts on You Tube.
Xu Xiaodong EXPOSES CHINA | Fake Martial Arts Masters DESTROYED - YouTube

The Marquess of Queensbury ,John Douglas was a first class **** who developed nothing,what he did was donate three cups for a boxing tournament and the rules were then named in his honour. He is principally known today for being the arch enemy of Oscar Wilde who was his son's lover and ,when he wrote his famous indictment of Wilde,mis-spelling the word Sodomite as Somdomite .Wilde very unwisely took out proceedings against him,thus becoming the author of his own downfall.

The Marquess of Queensberry: Wilde's Nemesis by Linda Stratmann – review | Biography books | The Guardian
To date I've seen nothing from Glukose/MarchBeano to give me any impression he knows jack **** about boxing and his ludicrous self promoting is taken to the heights of absurdity.
He was a standing joke on Classic, I used to get pm's from guys saying WTF is this looney?
You don't demand respect ,you earn it,and he gets none from me.

[billeau2]

There is a guy ,Xu Xiaodong, who has made career out of challenging fake martial artists to a fight I don't think he has been beaten yet,you can find his bouts on You Tube.
Xu Xiaodong EXPOSES CHINA | Fake Martial Arts Masters DESTROYED - YouTube

The Marquess of Queensbury ,John Douglas was a first class **** who developed nothing,what he did was donate three cups for a boxing tournament and the rules were then named in his honour. He is principally known today for being the arch enemy of Oscar Wilde who was his son's lover and ,when he wrote his famous indictment of Wilde,mis-spelling the word Sodomite as Somdomite .Wilde very unwisely took out proceedings against him,thus becoming the author of his own downfall.

The Marquess of Queensberry: Wilde's Nemesis by Linda Stratmann – review | Biography books | The Guardian
To date I've seen nothing from Glukose/MarchBeano to give me any impression he knows jack **** about boxing and his ludicrous self promoting is taken to the heights of absurdity.
He was a standing joke on Classic, I used to get pm's from guys saying WTF is this looney?
You don't demand respect ,you earn it,and he gets none from me.

Yes I know of Xu lol... No, not beaten, nor are his students ever beaten because they are really good about going after frauds. Its kind of shocking for people to see these so called masters not able to fight a lick. Dojo storming in my day accomplished much the same.

Thats interesting about Wilde.

Well others can have their opinions about posters... Nobody ever forces anyone to enter their threads, and that is a good thing.

[Willie Pep 229]

There is a guy ,Xu Xiaodong, who has made career out of challenging fake martial artists to a fight I don't think he has been beaten yet,you can find his bouts on You Tube.
Xu Xiaodong EXPOSES CHINA | Fake Martial Arts Masters DESTROYED - YouTube

The Marquess of Queensbury ,John Douglas was a first class **** who developed nothing,what he did was donate three cups for a boxing tournament and the rules were then named in his honour. He is principally known today for being the arch enemy of Oscar Wilde who was his son's lover and ,when he wrote his famous indictment of Wilde,mis-spelling the word Sodomite as Somdomite .Wilde very unwisely took out proceedings against him,thus becoming the author of his own downfall.

The Marquess of Queensberry: Wilde's Nemesis by Linda Stratmann – review | Biography books | The Guardian
To date I've seen nothing from Glukose/MarchBeano to give me any impression he knows jack **** about boxing and his ludicrous self promoting is taken to the heights of absurdity.
He was a standing joke on Classic, I used to get pm's from guys saying WTF is this looney?
You don't demand respect ,you earn it,and he gets none from me.

Actually I am pro Wilde in that argument but . . .

Wilde could be a serious prick and the guy was pretty sure his son's ****sexuallity was being exploited for money, i.e. high living.

IMO Douglas lending his name to the new rules was more about brininging legitimacy to the rules and moving the fight game out of the alleyways and into the Sporting Clubs, than it was about him taking credit for their innovation.

It doesn't seem to have been a secret who actually wrote the rules, even at that time. -- I could be wrong.

RE Xu Xia: From what little I know about him, he is the one who is getting hassled from the powers above. It seems these fake gurus have some serious connections and he is the one suffering not the frauds he exposes. Hope I am wrong on this one.