Larry Holmes vs WBA champs

[Willie Pep 229]

Another point is that predominately the white paying audience did not want to see a white heavyweight champion fight a black challenger. So the idea that a fight such as this would not draw flies. Now the reverse of course is quite different. Johnson fought predominantly white opponents as champion as the audience wanted to see a white contender beat the black champion. Fights are made when money can be made.

Sad to say Louis fought predominately white contenders. We tend to think of Louis after the War with Charles and Walcott, but what black fighters did he face before the War. John Henry Lewis is the only one I can pull out of thin air, and he only lasted one round.

Also I heard that he was finished as a fighter so Louis was giving him a payday. But that might just be a story.

But even with Louis it seems most black HWs were getting frozen out (pre-War). It only seems to break wide open after the War.

[Willie Pep 229]

The history of the color line is well written about and should be understood. Jeffries fought more black fighters than any heavyweight champion up to Louis so for anyone to imply that Jeffries was afraid to fight black opponents is hogwash. However he probably was afraid of white societies backlash had he given a black contender a chance to beat him for the title. Let alone the potential of what could occur if he gave that opportunity and lost.

I agree with that.

[HOUDINI563]

Another point is that predominately the white paying audience did not want to see a white heavyweight champion fight a black challenger. So the idea that a fight such as this would not draw flies. Now the reverse of course is quite different. Johnson fought predominantly white opponents as champion as the audience wanted to see a white contender beat the black champion. Fights are made when money can be made.

[HOUDINI563]

Explain . . . What pity was I asking for? . . . And I don't consider myself white, I use to but found out real fast that 'I'm not white, it got explained to me once moving into the South lol

The best one was when I was a stage hand. I was the stand-in for the speaker and we were gelling the lights with color. I looked good under the colors we chose, then the speaker, a white guy from Nebraska showed up, lol stood under the lights and looked like death warmed over. It turns out I'm yellow skinned. A real eye opener for me.

What I am tried of, is reading about how no white fighter during the color line era is given credit for his effort because he didn't fight the great black fighters - the posts are tirersome, redundant and full of prejudice - there is this anti-white vibe on this forum when it comes to white champions before Louis' tenure. It's overdone.

Now back to me . . . This is great, I got Lefty and Queen who think I am too Woke and now you think I'm a whining *****ite. That makes me feel great, because what I really am is a misanthrope.

Anyway my real complaint is that Houdini loves to tell history by quotes and I hate history via quotes. Everyone lies, or shapes the world to benefit themselves and then after a little time passes and the dust settles on the bookcover people somehow think it has become the truth.

History by quotes is bogus and lazy.

The history of the color line is well written about and should be understood. Jeffries fought more black fighters than any heavyweight champion up to Louis so for anyone to imply that Jeffries was afraid to fight black opponents is hogwash. However he probably was afraid of white societies backlash had he given a black contender a chance to beat him for the title. Let alone the potential of what could occur if he gave that opportunity and lost.

[Willie Pep 229]

No, you went the "Pity me I'm a poor oppressed whyte!" route. Get real.

Explain . . . What pity was I asking for? . . . And I don't consider myself white, I use to but found out real fast that 'I'm not white, it got explained to me once moving into the South lol

The best one was when I was a stage hand. I was the stand-in for the speaker and we were gelling the lights with color. I looked good under the colors we chose, then the speaker, a white guy from Nebraska showed up, lol stood under the lights and looked like death warmed over. It turns out I'm yellow skinned. A real eye opener for me.

What I am tried of, is reading about how no white fighter during the color line era is given credit for his effort because he didn't fight the great black fighters - the posts are tirersome, redundant and full of prejudice - there is this anti-white vibe on this forum when it comes to white champions before Louis' tenure. It's overdone.

Now back to me . . . This is great, I got Lefty and Queen who think I am too Woke and now you think I'm a whining *****ite. That makes me feel great, because what I really am is a misanthrope.

Anyway my real complaint is that Houdini loves to tell history by quotes and I hate history via quotes. Everyone lies, or shapes the world to benefit themselves and then after a little time passes and the dust settles on the bookcover people somehow think it has become the truth.

History by quotes is bogus and lazy.

[StarshipTrooper]

Oh OK it's my fault. You have no obligation to explain yourself clearly it is up to the reader to guess correctly. I ll try to remember that.

What nonsense!

No, you went the "Pity me I'm a poor oppressed whyte!" route. Get real.

[Willie Pep 229]

You jumped to the lowest possible denominator. The dynamics of what was going on during that time period are well understood.

Oh OK it's my fault. You have no obligation to explain yourself clearly it is up to the reader to guess correctly. I ll try to remember that.

What nonsense!

[HOUDINI563]

"As per Fleischer in his book “50 years at Ringside” the REAL reason Jeffries retired was the rise of the great black heavyweights Johnson, Langford, Jeanette and McVey."

How was I suspose to draw that conclusion from the quote above?

You say he implied much but I can't discern those things from what you wrote.

You jumped to the lowest possible denominator. The dynamics of what was going on during that time period are well understood.

[QueensburyRules]

Anyway, if you don’t favor Holmes over everyone on that list (keeping in mind that version of Ali was far from prime), you don’t know shyt about Larry Holmes

- - I know tubsy Lar who used to be skinny is 0-6, 0 KO against any fighter holding a title won in the ring.

He's 1-0 with the sparest 1 point fractional% SD over the new WBC Administrative champ who never won a world title.

Ya could look it up!

[QueensburyRules]

Fleicher was no racist. Period. He actively pushed and pushed hard to allow black heavyweights to fight for the title.

Fleischer used the phrase REAL REASON. I have no reason to believe he was wrong or lying. He knew that time period better than anyone today by a very long stretch.

- - And Nat was certainly no saint.

Jeffries was on record late in his career as being fed up with being champ, training, and wanting to retire. The Hart/Johnson result prompted that retirement when it was obvious there were no relevant contenders left. Langford, Jeannette, McVey were aspiring prospects and Wills not even a pro, and point in fact Langford famously took out a full page ad challenging all relevant heavies save Jeffries.

Did Nat accuse Jeff of ducking Hart, the victor of JJohnson?

Of course not. Nat was speaking out of context as an old man with uncertain faculties in a fading timeline of existence.