The level of ability of an average opponent...Using Sonny Liston as an example.

[Willie Pep 229]

- - The eastern Euro "Soviet" bloc turning pro along with the growing latino populations having more access to the US market has cut the US share of top fighters.

Thus far though, the vast Asian billions have a greatly reduced footprint in boxing as that is simply not a part of their culture.

What about India and Pakistan? I know that one guy posted an idiot dancing his way to the ring (Dumb Ring Walks) (only to get KOed) looked to be from that region and I assume The Prince looked to be Arab/Persian of some sort (although fighting out of England so he really doesn't count.)

But what about the subcontinent, there's over a billion people there, how big is boxing?

[QueensburyRules]

What about India and Pakistan? I know that one guy posted an idiot dancing his way to the ring (Dumb Ring Walks) (only to get KOed) looked to be from that region and I assume The Prince looked to be Arab/Persian of some sort (although fighting out of England so he really doesn't count.)

But what about the subcontinent, there's over a billion people there, how big is boxing?

- - If you're talking about Thais, yeah, on par with Japanese save they're stuck in the mini divisions. India and Pakistan might as well not exist as far as their presence in boxing. China only exists because of early promotional efforts by Arum and such, and still only barely exists for boxing. Basketball, gymnastics and other Olympic sports much bigger.

[Willow The Wisp]

I suspect that the biggest numbers falling between Lightweight and Super Welterweight is do to it being a world wide stat - I'd be curious to see if it was just the USA and if the big numbers would then shift one weight class higher.

Heavyweight - 1,226. US. - 345
Cruiserweight 200 - 1,040. US. - 194
Light Heavyweight 175. - 1,045. US. - 163
Super Middleweight 168 - 1,275. US. - 229
Middleweight 160. - 1,359. US. - 255
Super Welterweight - 1,762. US. - 289
Welterweight - 1,846. US. - 383
Super Lightweight - 1,919. US - 298
Lightweight - 1,958. US - 269
Super Featherweight - 1,417. US. - 187
Featherweight - 1,332. US. - 155
Super Bantamweight - 1,118. US. - 109
Bantamweight - 817. US. - 75
Super Flyweight - 613. US. - 36
Flyweight - 572. US. - 23
Light Flyweight - 319. US. - 6
Minimumweight. - 184. US. - 6

Total active professionals. -
Professional Boxing. World. - 19,802. US. - 3,033
Professional MMA. World. - 6,893. US - 4,194
Professional Kickboxing World. - 2,623. US. - 51
Other combat World. - 366. US. - 88

(Sources: BoxRec, Tapology, ABC Boxing, The Ring, KickboxingZ, WKC, WAKO, ONE Championship, ACB, Glory, IKF, RingofFire, PerfectKB, Sherdog, LiverKick Archive, MMA Mania, World Muay Thai Council, World Thai Boxing Association, GFC, IWF, Kunlun Fight, Rise, Fightrecord, Lowkick, IBJJF, MMA Payout, Superkombat, Mixed Martial Arts, Office of the Ministry of Tourism and Sports - Thailand, MMAJunkie, Myanmar Lethwei corporation, MMA Weekly, Muay Thai Citizen, SJJIF, WBC Muay Thai, YOKKAO, IFMA, MMAFighting, Shooto, Cafesideseats, ADCC, others)

[billeau2]

I understand. Heavyweights are purely representitive of the evolution, overfed populations packing on the pounds and all.
And yes, the size of the talent poor matters alot.
There is the measure of global population, and there is professional participation (obviously different things). Regarding the latter, the total number of pros who've had a fight somewhere in the world during the past 12 months, by weight division; breaks down like this (Note that in the Covid planet the numbers are lowered against previous years, and note that the numbers are for today, 31 January, 2022 and are fluid as fighters time out, re list as active and debut, and lastly; consider that medium adult male weights vary considerably between countries):

Heavyweight - 1,224
Cruiserweight 200 - 1,038
Light Heavyweight 175. - 1,044
Super Middleweight 168 - 1,273
Middleweight 160. - 1,360
Super Welterweight - 1,757
Welterweight - 1,844
Super Lightweight - 1,913
Lightweight - 1,960
Super Featherweight - 1,414
Featherweight - 1,331
Super Bantamweight - 1,116
Bantamweight - 817
Super Flyweight - 613
Flyweight - 573
Light Flyweight - 319
Minimumweight. - 184

Quick observation? Tiny guy divisions are sparsely populated and feature few European and US fighters.

Thats great info. Interestingly enough when we consider Thai Boxing, which has a viable and somewhat similar semi-monolithic structure as our own tradition, the champ is considered the middleweight winner. heavyweight is considered a secondary category. Its just our own tradition that looks at the big boys as the big division lol.

[Willie Pep 229]

Heavyweight - 1,226. US. - 345
Cruiserweight 200 - 1,040. US. - 194
Light Heavyweight 175. - 1,045. US. - 163
Super Middleweight 168 - 1,275. US. - 229
Middleweight 160. - 1,359. US. - 255
Super Welterweight - 1,762. US. - 289
Welterweight - 1,846. US. - 383
Super Lightweight - 1,919. US - 298
Lightweight - 1,958. US - 269
Super Featherweight - 1,417. US. - 187
Featherweight - 1,332. US. - 155
Super Bantamweight - 1,118. US. - 109
Bantamweight - 817. US. - 75
Super Flyweight - 613. US. - 36
Flyweight - 572. US. - 23
Light Flyweight - 319. US. - 6
Minimumweight. - 184. US. - 6

Total active professionals. -
Professional Boxing. World. - 19,802. US. - 3,033
Professional MMA. World. - 6,893. US - 4,194
Professional Kickboxing World. - 2,623. US. - 51
Other combat World. - 366. US. - 88

(Sources: BoxRec, Tapology, ABC Boxing, The Ring, KickboxingZ, WKC, WAKO, ONE Championship, ACB, Glory, IKF, RingofFire, PerfectKB, Sherdog, LiverKick Archive, MMA Mania, World Muay Thai Council, World Thai Boxing Association, GFC, IWF, Kunlun Fight, Rise, Fightrecord, Lowkick, IBJJF, MMA Payout, Superkombat, Mixed Martial Arts, Office of the Ministry of Tourism and Sports - Thailand, MMAJunkie, Myanmar Lethwei corporation, MMA Weekly, Muay Thai Citizen, SJJIF, WBC Muay Thai, YOKKAO, IFMA, MMAFighting, Shooto, Cafesideseats, ADCC, otheatrs)

Lol look at all those HW - still big numbers down at WW and MW though.

No little guys whatsoever, like you said.

Probably need to combine CW and LHW I suspect there is much movement there.

Thanks for posting.

[The Old LefHook]

It is pretty stunning that an obviously corrupt sport of highly ritualized and unrealistic combat where the best fighters will not even engage each other anymore except verbally still draws big numbers. Boxing should lose its big numbers to once again instill some pride in the halfwits who punch each other for money. This is why I wholeheartedly support freak matches. Let them upset boxing's apple cart. In fact, boxing is so fŭcking bad these days that I would rather talk about it than watch it. Every scrub match with any name recognition they put on PPV. Only if the fans react strongly will anything change. I am reacting. I would not buy one of their scrub PPV matches if they made it half price. If boxing wises up, I will pay for fights again. As for scrub matches, especially on PPV, I would rather read the results than have to watch them.

Hell, Besmanoff and Machen would be PPV fighters these days. Both were good fighters, but not closed circuit material in their own day. But the point is: today some of their fights would be on PPV. Boo!

[Willie Pep 229]

It is pretty stunning that an obviously corrupt sport of highly ritualized and unrealistic combat where the best fighters will not even engage each other anymore except verbally still draws big numbers. Boxing should lose its big numbers to once again instill some pride in the halfwits who punch each other for money. This is why I wholeheartedly support freak matches. Let them upset boxing's apple cart. In fact, boxing is so fŭcking bad these day that I would rather talk about it than watch it. Every scrub match with any name recognition they put on PPV. Only if the fans react strongly will anything change. I am reacting. I would not buy one of their scrub PPV matches if they made it half price. If boxing wises up, I will pay for fights again. As for scrub matches, especially on PPV, I would rather read the results than have to watch them.

Hell, Besmanoff and Machen would be PPV fighters these days. Both were good fighters, but not closed circuit material in their own day. But the point is: today some of their fights would be on PPV. Boo!

Does Thurman v Barrios belong on PVV. I wonder what kind if numbers it will draw?

[QueensburyRules]

Does Thurman v Barrios belong on PVV. I wonder what kind if numbers it will draw?

- - Uncle Al goodfella investors ain't interested in ppvs. Arum in his poopsie 90s the last American obstacle to their takeover of American boxing enhanced with MTK swag.

[The Old LefHook]

Does Thurman v Barrios belong on PVV. I wonder what kind if numbers it will draw?

It is a joke. Who do we get to watch for free these days? If John Ruiz ever comes back, they will put it on PPV. $59.99.

[Willow The Wisp]

It is pretty stunning that an obviously corrupt sport of highly ritualized and unrealistic combat where the best fighters will not even engage each other anymore except verbally still draws big numbers. Boxing should lose its big numbers to once again instill some pride in the halfwits who punch each other for money. This is why I wholeheartedly support freak matches. Let them upset boxing's apple cart. In fact, boxing is so fŭcking bad these day that I would rather talk about it than watch it. Every scrub match with any name recognition they put on PPV. Only if the fans react strongly will anything change. I am reacting. I would not buy one of their scrub PPV matches if they made it half price. If boxing wises up, I will pay for fights again. As for scrub matches, especially on PPV, I would rather read the results than have to watch them.

Hell, Besmanoff and Machen would be PPV fighters these days. Both were good fighters, but not closed circuit material in their own day. But the point is: today some of their fights would be on PPV. Boo!

I get half of this but some of it just baffles me. Here's what I mean. The description of Boxing as "obviously corrupt". That I get, in the way that greedy, self serving business people are forever squeezing the life out of the sport in exchange for cash grabs, crapping all over the sport and reducing the fanbase in exchange for a semi - profitable quarter. The crappy cards being peddled to addidict level hardcore fans like fentinol is where that trend has brought us. Sustainability being of no concern to these hacks, it's hardly worth notice that such users die off. Even so, I'd caution about the use of a term like "obviously Corrupt" that might question the authenticity of the fights.
Fighers who take no shortcuts to victory like choking, kicking below the belt or hyperextension of a joint have earned the right to respect.

I really get lost when I read things like boxing described as a "sport of highly ritualized and unrealistic combat where the best fighters will not even engage each other anymore except verbally" Followed by disappointment that it "still draws big numbers".
MMA has its parentage in pro wrestling, Mirikan matches, Vale Tudo, RINGS, the Gracie Challenge and the like; while Boxing was, in Greek tradition, founded by Apollo the Sun God. The delta in the relative importance, to say nothing of the gap in their intrinsic dignity is, as seen when comparing any two occupations, reflected in the enormous difference in their championship level payrate. Both Boxing and MMA have rules that place them well apart from real assault. MMAs broader rules succeed more to change the ashtetic and "gay it up" than they do to make it "More Real" or, less "ritualized". In MMA a kicker can strike below the belt, a puncher may not. A grappler operates with an impunity in MMA that isn't offered them on the combat field, where getting that cozy will always invite immediately the bites and eye gouging that are not your favorite option for an outcome. Those maiming counters indeed may not stop your skilled close quarters attack, but in "highly stylized" MMA, you operate without that maiming risk reality even being present. it's unreal. I stop short of claiming boxing is "better" or that Grappling, headbutts, knees, elbows, sweeps, shoots, chokes, bites, throws, groin attacks, eye attacks, etc don't factor extensively in a real fight, or if you want your spectator sports "Real". Of course they do. And of course there is Value in learning, using and the appreciation of more combat techniques versus less; but if you can drop an ******* where he stands with a quick, hard, accurate one-two and immediately leave the room, that is almost always your very best option. And even in the training of MMA fighters, everybody knows that plain old Boxing is the best thing to deliver that. If you want to watch real violence, that's your thing. If you like the clean, pure fight where guys dont end up "nuts in they face with panties oun", as Bernard Hopkins, worth over $40 million this year from that "Highly stylized fighting" once famously said...that's boxing.
That.....is how Boxing has survived all the abuse.