Is there any case for Foreman>Ali?

[kayjay]

Ali is the most overrated heavyweight ever.

This part I agree with. Ali had a nice reign in the 60's, but he didn't face great competition at that time. Moreover, he struggled with some fairly pedestrian opponents by HW champ standards. The Chuvalo, Cooper, and Mildenberger fights, for instance, were much more difficult than they would be for other HW champs.

In that time he defeated guys (Moore, Patterson) who were WAY past their time.

In the 70's he lost a wide decision to Frazier and a close one to Norton, while getting undeserved decisions in rematches. Both fighters had his number and arguably got the better of him over the course of their rivalries.

Many of his big wins (Liston 2 and Foreman) are clouded in controversy.

In his later defenses he struggled with very weak opposition such as Wepner, Bugner and Young.


Put this all together and you have a long, successful career that is far from "the greatest." His reputation is based on his celebrity more than the realities of his abilities and achievements.

[bojangles1987]

I think we all can agree that Foreman would have a good chance in a rematch with Ali, but the argument my friend was making was for Foreman>Ali all time. He thinks Foreman should be considered a better fighter than Ali was.

In a rematch, with Ali getting even older and Foreman maybe being a little smarter about the fight, there's no way I could say Ali would definitely have won. I think he would have, but I can't say he without question would have.

[Abstraction]

Alot of the guys have never seen the Foreman-Ali bout.

It's not as Foreman was winning and gassed himself out, and Ali took it at the end.

Ali was schooling him silly throughout and was ahead on all the scorecards

[-Antonio-]

Alot of the guys have never seen the Foreman-Ali bout.

It's not as Foreman was winning and gassed himself out, and Ali took it at the end.

Ali was schooling him silly throughout and was ahead on all the scorecards

Schooling, no.

He did land a lot more punches than is lead to believe. Hard counters off of the ropes. He was not winning the fight to me though. Foreman was outworking him.

[Sugarj]

Both fighters make my all time greatest heavyweight top ten. Two legends.

I suppose its arguable that Foreman could have done much better against Ali in Zaire should he have stood off or threw fewer, more accurate shots at Ali when the latter was lying on the ropes. It surely would have gone more than eight rounds if Foreman had paced himself better.

That said fifteen rounds is a long time and I think Ali probably would have shaded a close decision anyway, Foreman was not a fifteen round fighter, look how he faded against Jimmy Young. But we'll never know! His pacing was far better in his second incarnation though.

I think talk of how Foreman would have faired in a rematch strays a bit from the original thread question. I personally think that if the Ali of 67 was matched with the Foreman of 74 Ali's win would be more emphatic. Ali was so fast, lively on his feet and difficult to hit at this point, Foreman would have been his best challenger by far to date but I think we'd see a clear decision for Ali.

I think that Foreman's longevity can partly be attributed to his ten years out of the ring. If he hadn't left in 77 he would have surely ended up fighting Shavers, Holmes, a peak Cooney and Tyson. He may well have beaten all of these guys but he'd have shipped some serious leather enroute, I doubt we'd have seen him as late as 1998 if he had fought 77-87.

I dont agree with the assertion that Ali's poor preparation for the Holmes fight, diet and thyroid pills was responsible for his comparative lack of longevity compared to Foreman (who balooned to over 300Lbs in first retirement!). Ali's motor skills went into fairly quick decline after shipping all the punishment in Frazier 3. I'm convinced his Parkinsons can primarily be attributed to this fight.

[joseph5620]

This part I agree with. Ali had a nice reign in the 60's, but he didn't face great competition at that time. Moreover, he struggled with some fairly pedestrian opponents by HW champ standards. The Chuvalo, Cooper, and Mildenberger fights, for instance, were much more difficult than they would be for other HW champs.

In that time he defeated guys (Moore, Patterson) who were WAY past their time.

In the 70's he lost a wide decision to Frazier and a close one to Norton, while getting undeserved decisions in rematches. Both fighters had his number and arguably got the better of him over the course of their rivalries.

Many of his big wins (Liston 2 and Foreman) are clouded in controversy.

In his later defenses he struggled with very weak opposition such as Wepner, Bugner and Young.


Put this all together and you have a long, successful career that is far from "the greatest." His reputation is based on his celebrity more than the realities of his abilities and achievements.

Wow. Rewritten history here.

[Sugarj]

Yes I was a bit amused by Kayjay's post too.

Chuvalo was no walkover in the 60s, very tough guy, Foreman couldn't knock him out (only stopped on his feet) but honestly Ali toyed with him. Much was made of Ali having taken alot of shots to the body but he did invite George to hit him there. The Cooper defense was a clinical sixth round beating, I didn't give Cooper a round. As for Mildenberger, Ali hadn't faced many southpaws before.

Ali didn't face Moore in his championship reign.

Patterson was only 30 and mixed in world class for a further seven years after facing Ali, many thought him unlucky to have lost the decisions against Quarry and Ellis and he decisioned Bonavena in the early 70s. He had a back injury the night Ali faced him. Even with the Liston losses he wasn't 'way' past his best.

The Frazier decision wasn't that wide, one judge by three rounds, one by two. Take away the knockdown and you have a very close fight. No way was Frazier close in the second fight and Ali was killing Frazier in rounds thirteen and fourteen of their third fight, it was rightly stopped.

The Foreman fight was only controversial because of the result. Foreman was hardly a shell of himself upto round seven, he clearly gassed himself with a workrate that was too high!

Granted I do believe Liston took a dive in the rematch.

Have you seen the Wepner fight? Forget that clumsy so called knockdown from that innocuous body blow, it was a white wash for Ali, Wepner didn't come close to troubling Ali.

Again on the Bugner defense, Joe didn't come close to troubling Ali. This was one of Joe's worst performances.

True Young did do well against a very post prime Ali.

As for his celebrity clouding his true ability, its worth watching the first Liston fight, Terrel, Williams, Folley, the second Quarry fight and Frazier 3. Ali was amazing!!!!!