New Best Case for Boxing

[Obama]

Pac vs Mayweather? sure

i'm already got my bets full for the Marquez fight.

I'm 100% sure Pacquiao will pound Mayweather.

Man, never go to Vegas.

That fight is the second coming of Whitaker vs Chavez.

[them_apples]

Man, never go to Vegas.

I'm serious, if the fight happens, and given I have pts left from the Marquez fight (which im 50/50 on) I'll go full in.

[Obama]

I'm serious, if the fight happens, and given I have pts left from the Marquez fight (which im 50/50 on) I'll go full in.

When did you decide Pac definitely beats Mayweather, before or after the fights with DLH and Hatton?

[them_apples]

When did you decide Pac definitely beats Mayweather, before or after the fights with DLH and Hatton?

just look at their competition, Pacquiao has fought ELITE competition. DLH and Hatton were just great for publicity, funny thing was, those 2 guys were some of the best names of Mayweathers resume which showed since they gave him all he could handle.

You think Mayweather can Hold Pacquiao off with one punch counters? Hatton was giving him hell for about 8 rounds. On top of that, he's been off for 14 months. I have a gut feeling Mayweather will get a cut in one of the Pacquiao or Marquez fights, and he won't be able to cope with it since he's always been a "pretty boy".

[DonTaseMeBrah]

Pac vs Mayweather? sure

i'm already got my bets full for the Marquez fight.

I'm 100% sure Pacquiao will pound Mayweather.

thats a 50/50 fight.

[Obama]

just look at their competition, Pacquiao has fought ELITE competition. DLH and Hatton were just great for publicity, funny thing was, those 2 guys were some of the best names of Mayweathers resume.

You think Mayweather can Hold Pacquiao off with one punch counters? Hatton was giving him hell for about 8 rounds. On top of that, he's been off for 14 months. I have a gut feeling Mayweather will get a cut in one of the Pacquiao or Marquez fights, and he won't be able to cope with it since he's always been a "pretty boy".

DLH and Hatton are 2 of the 5 best guys Floyd beat, but the bottom half not the top. Floyd fought elite competition when he beat Corrales and Castillo. Two guys he beat decisively. Pac on the other hand only beat elite competition when he faced an '03 Barrera and Marquez (who he never really beat in either fight). Those are their elite wins. Pac lost to a post-prime Morales (taking the last bit of greatness out of Morales in the process), then beat him after he was over the hill. An Over the hill Morales x2 and Barrera ('07) don't exactly trump Judah, prime Hatton, and post-prime but healthy JMW Champion Oscar. Pac beat versions of Hatton and DLH, but they were on par with Floyd's B list:

Genaro Hernandez, Angel Manfredy, Jesus Chavez, DeMarcus Corley, Sharmba Mitchell, Carlos Baldomir

And for the record Floyd doesn't get cut cuz he doesn't get hit flush that often. But it's not like he's never coped with adversity. He broke his hand against Carlos Hernandez in like the 6 round (causing him to suffer the only officialy KD of his career), yet he managed to go the full 12.

[them_apples]

DLH and Hatton are 2 of the 5 best guys Floyd beat, but the bottom half not the top. Floyd fought elite competition when he beat Corrales and Castillo. Two guys he beat decisively. Pac on the other hand only beat elite competition when he faced an '03 Barrera and Marquez (who he never really beat in either fight). Those are their elite wins. Pac lost to a post-prime Morales (taking the last bit of greatness out of Morales in the process), then beat him after he was over the hill. An Over the hill Morales x2 and Barrera ('07) don't exactly trump Judah, prime Hatton, and post-prime but healthy JMW Champion Oscar. Pac beat versions of Hatton and DLH, but they were on par with Floyd's B list:

Genaro Hernandez, Angel Manfredy, Jesus Chavez, DeMarcus Corley, Sharmba Mitchell, Carlos Baldomir

And for the record Floyd doesn't get cut cuz he doesn't get hit flush that often. But it's not like he's never coped with adversity. He broke his hand against Carlos Hernandez in like the 6 round (causing him to suffer the only officialy KD of his career), yet he managed to go the full 12.

well, you can say Mayweather never beat Castillo the first time around, and I disagree that Corrales was better than DLH at 154, because he wasn't. Pacquiao would have made a fool of Corrales had they fought.

Let me point out that 03 Barrera is a prime Barrera. Morales was not at his best but Pacquiao still avenged his loss convincingly. Let me further point out that Barrera, Morales and Marquez are much better than one dimensional Corrales and Castillo. In other words, Floyd fought guys he knew he could beat. It's like if Pacquiao kept fighting Ricky Hatton's and David Diaz's over and over.

For the record, that was my point, when he does get a cut, he's not going to be ready - because he's never been cut before.

If you look at Pacquiaos record, it's got a lot more than just the Mexican trio. He would still be in the top 5 p4p even without those wins.

Like I said, if you think I'm wrong and if the fight ever happens i'll go full in. Mayweather is just not going to be able to handle a guy like Pacquiao. Pot shotting won't bother Pacquiao, the man's been in so many wars he laughs at these low punch per round WW's.

[Obama]

well, you can say Mayweather never beat Castillo the first time around, and I disagree that Corrales was better than DLH at 154, because he wasn't. Pacquiao would have made a fool of Corrales had they fought.

Let me point out that 03 Barrera is a prime Barrera. Morales was not at his best but Pacquiao still avenged his loss convincingly. Let me further point out that Barrera, Morales and Marquez are much better than one dimensional Corrales and Castillo. In other words, Floyd fought guys he knew he could beat. It's like if Pacquiao kept fighting Ricky Hatton's and David Diaz's over and over.

For the record, that was my point, when he does get a cut, he's not going to be ready - because he's never been cut before.

If you look at Pacquiaos record, it's got a lot more than just the Mexican trio. He would still be in the top 5 p4p even without those wins.

Like I said, if you think I'm wrong and if the fight ever happens i'll go full in. Mayweather is just not going to be able to handle a guy like Pacquiao. Pot shotting won't bother Pacquiao, the man's been in so many wars he laughs at these low punch per round WW's.

You called Corrales and Castillo 1 dimensional, and you're telling me a prime Corrales wasn't an elite fighter.... Your bias is strong. Morales, Barrera, and MArquez are clearly better fighters, but when you take into account the versions that Pac beat, and the versions he lost to or should have lost to, it clearly swings in Mayweather's favor. As for the first Castillo fight, Mayweather had a torn rotator cuff. He shouldn't have even took the fight.

So what that Pac avenged his lost to Morales? He didn't beat the same man. Morales beats him 3/3 in his prime.

Pac's record may have more than the Mexican trio, but it doesn't trump Mayweather's B/B- department opponents. (List below based off criteria of actually beating fighters who mattered, so for example one of Floyd's tougher opponents (Augustus) wouldn't show up here)

Floyd:
'B' level wins:
Genaro Hernandez, Angel Manfredy, Jesus Chavez, DeMarcus Corley, Sharmba Mitchell, Carlos Baldomir
'B-' level wins:
Gregorio Vargas, Carlos Hernandez, Arturo Gatti

Manny:
'B' level wins:
Chatchai Sasakul, Lehlohonolo Ledwaba, Oscar Larios, David Diaz, Oscar De La Hoya, Ricky Hatton
'B-' level wins:
Jorge Eliecer Julio, Hector Velazquez, Jorge Solis

But none of this has anything to do with why Manny won't beat Floyd. Manny won't win because he has no experience with a fighter remotely like Floyd. Floyd is a fast, slick, defensively gifted counter puncher. Manny has never fought anyone fast, slick, or defensively gifted. And against the best counter puncher Manny faced he failed to impress in both his outings against the man (Marquez). Manny has avoided guys like Mayweather his whole career, primarily Joan Guzman.

[them_apples]

You called Corrales and Castillo 1 dimensional, and you're telling me a prime Corrales wasn't an elite fighter.... Your bias is strong. Morales, Barrera, and MArquez are clearly better fighters, but when you take into account the versions that Pac beat, and the versions he lost to or should have lost to, it clearly swings in Mayweather's favor. As for the first Castillo fight, Mayweather had a torn rotator cuff. He shouldn't have even took the fight.

So what that Pac avenged his lost to Morales? He didn't beat the same man. Morales beats him 3/3 in his prime.

Pac's record may have more than the Mexican trio, but it doesn't trump Mayweather's B/B- department opponents. (List below based off criteria of actually beating fighters who mattered, so for example one of Floyd's tougher opponents (Augustus) wouldn't show up here)

Floyd:
'B' level wins:
Genaro Hernandez, Angel Manfredy, Jesus Chavez, DeMarcus Corley, Sharmba Mitchell, Carlos Baldomir
'B-' level wins:
Gregorio Vargas, Carlos Hernandez, Arturo Gatti

Manny:
'B' level wins:
Chatchai Sasakul, Lehlohonolo Ledwaba, Oscar Larios, David Diaz, Oscar De La Hoya, Ricky Hatton
'B-' level wins:
Jorge Eliecer Julio, Hector Velazquez, Jorge Solis

But none of this has anything to do with why Manny won't beat Floyd. Manny won't win because he has no experience with a fighter remotely like Floyd. Floyd is a fast, slick, defensively gifted counter puncher. Manny has never fought anyone fast, slick, or defensively gifted. And against the best counter puncher Manny faced he failed to impress in both his outings against the man (Marquez). Manny has avoided guys like Mayweather his whole career, primarily Joan Guzman.

The only guy that wasn't at his best was Morales in the 3rd fight. It get's played up to much that he was completely shot. In the 2nd fight, he was past his best - but it's easier to spot improvement from Pacquiao than it is a decline in Morales. Barrera was 29, was still prime and went on to do other things. Marquez is clearly prime and still is even at 35.

It's true Pacquiao has never fought a slick fighter, but Freddy Roach notoriously picks up the best sparring partners that match an event, in comparison to Mayweather Sr. who had Hatton fighting 6 ft tall southpaws who fought nothing like Pacquiao. I should also say that Mayweather has had trouble Zab Judah, a quick southpaw as well as aggression (castillo and Hatton) Those are 2 things that Pacquiao is simply head and shoulders above the opponent's that gave him trouble. In fact, the only reason Mayweather beat Judah was because Judah fades, not because Mayweather adjusted. The shoulder roll is pretty awkward to adjust to work against a southpaw. Manny has fought fast fighters, when you fight at 122-126 and 130..just about everyone is fast. This is why Floyd has trouble with quick guys, where as Manny has a warrior instinct and is willing to trade if they have equal speed.

I wasn't saying Corrales was a bad fighter, you misunderstood me. He just doesn't rank as high as Barrera, Morales and Marquez - whome are elites.

From the lists you showed, Pacquiaos resume does seem to dwarf Mayweathers. His "good wins" are in Mayweathers "great wins" category.

[Obama]

The only guy that wasn't at his best was Morales in the 3rd fight. It get's played up to much that he was completely shot. In the 2nd fight, he was past his best - but it's easier to spot improvement from Pacquiao than it is a decline in Morales. Barrera was 29, was still prime and went on to do other things. Marquez is clearly prime and still is even at 35.

It's true Pacquiao has never fought a slick fighter, but Freddy Roach notoriously picks up the best sparring partners that match an event, in comparison to Mayweather Sr. who had Hatton fighting 6 ft tall southpaws who fought nothing like Pacquiao. I should also say that Mayweather has had trouble Zab Judah, a quick southpaw as well as aggression (castillo and Hatton) Those are 2 things that Pacquiao is simply head and shoulders above the opponent's that gave him trouble. In fact, the only reason Mayweather beat Judah was because Judah fades, not because Mayweather adjusted. The shoulder roll is pretty awkward to adjust to work against a southpaw. Manny has fought fast fighters, when you fight at 122-126 and 130..just about everyone is fast. This is why Floyd has trouble with quick guys, where as Manny has a warrior instinct and is willing to trade if they have equal speed.

I wasn't saying Corrales was a bad fighter, you misunderstood me. He just doesn't rank as high as Barrera, Morales and Marquez - whome are elites.

From the lists you showed, Pacquiaos resume does seem to dwarf Mayweathers. His "good wins" are in Mayweathers "great wins" category.

Sigh, aside from the fact that you're clearly trying to make more out of Pac's career than is really there (like pretending the 12th round of the first Pac fight didn't take the last bit of greatness out of Morales), you're simply oblivious to some typical facts:

1) Don't compare what Roach does to Mayweather Snr., Floyd Jr. trains with Roger Mayweather. Tell me about Roger, not Floyd Snr.

2) Zab Judah beats everyone in the opening rounds. He completely blitzed Floyd. Pacquiao can neither match the power or speed of Zab Judah, much less does he have the height and reach. And Pac does not blitz, he fights at a pace he can sustain through the duration. Floyd being a defensive fighter is naturally going to give away rounds by allowing a guy to gas who's operating at a pace he can't sustain.

3) I'm just going to ignore your statement about everyone being fast Super Featherweight and under. You know more about boxing than that point would indicate. I have all of Manny's meaningful fights on my computer, let me know if you want to see any.

4) Floyd doesn't have trouble with quick guys. Floyd is a patient fighter that fights every fight initially planning to go 12 rounds. He doesn't take risks he doesn't have to. You interpret moments when he doesn't throw many punches as him struggling. This is far from a reality. Floyd can control an entire round without throwing a single punch. It's not about winning every round. It's about winning the fight. Even in rounds he doesn't win, the other guy gets broken down. This happened in the Hatton fight, happened in the Chavez fight, happened in the N'dou fight, so on and so forth.

5) Come on now, how much of a hater are you to say that bit?