You have a good argument that Willie pep is not a top ten fighter

[cotto16]

I rate these fighters below all higher than pep

Ray Robinson
Henry Armstrong
Harry Greb
Sam Langford
Muhammed Ali
Joe Louis
Roberto Duran
Carlos Monzon
Jack Johnson
Stanley Ketchel
Ray Learnard
Pernell Whitaker

[TheGreatA]

Ketchel was not in Pep's class as a boxer. The other are arguable aside from Monzon who I do not rate as highly.

[cotto16]

Ketchel was not in Pep's class as a boxer. The other are arguable aside from Monzon who I do not rate as highly.

of course Ketchel didnt have peps class, but he overall beat the better fighters and left more of a impact on the sport. Monzon Beat more hall of famers than pep, and retired as champion somethink pep didnt do.

[TheGreatA]

of course Ketchel didnt have peps class, but he overall beat the better fighters and left more of a impact on the sport. Monzon Beat more hall of famers than pep, and retired as champion somethink pep didnt do.

Pep didn't have the privilege of beating smaller, older great fighters like Monzon did.

Ketchel beat a couple of good fighters (Papke, O'Brien, the Sullivan brothers) but I wouldn't say his competition was better overall than Pep's. Certainly not his longevity.

Top 10 rated boxers (by Ring Magazine) that Pep had wins over:

Sandy Saddler, Chalky Wright, Sal Bartolo, Manuel Ortiz, Jackie Graves, Humberto Sierra, Paddy DeMarco, Jock Leslie, Ray Famechon, Eddie Compo, Miguel Acevedo, Carlos Chavez, Jackie Wilson, Eddie Chavez, Allie Stolz, Charley Riley, Lulu Costantino, Gil Cadilli, Lefty LaChance, Willie Joyce, Charley Cabey Lewis, Bill Speary, Bobby Ivy, Spider Armstrong, Vince Dell'Orto, etc.

There may have been more... This is just some information I gathered in a short amount of time.

[cotto16]

Pep didn't have the privilege of beating smaller, older great fighters like Monzon did.

Ketchel beat a couple of good fighters (Papke, O'Brien, the Sullivan brothers) but I wouldn't say his competition was better overall than Pep's. Certainly not his longevity.

Top 10 rated boxers (by Ring Magazine) that Pep had wins over:

Sandy Saddler, Chalky Wright, Sal Bartolo, Manuel Ortiz, Jackie Graves, Humberto Sierra, Paddy DeMarco, Jock Leslie, Ray Famechon, Eddie Compo, Miguel Acevedo, Carlos Chavez, Jackie Wilson, Eddie Chavez, Allie Stolz, Charley Riley, Lulu Costantino, Gil Cadilli, Lefty LaChance, Willie Joyce, Charley Cabey Lewis, Bill Speary, Bobby Ivy, Spider Armstrong, Vince Dell'Orto, etc.

There may have been more... This is just some information I gathered in a short amount of time.

Well beating past there prime fighters is what pat lawlor and william joppy did against duran! not carlos. When monzon beat Napoles, he was considred one of the best pound for pound fighters in the world and one of the greatest ever welters, look at what one time past his prime welter leanard did against hagler! monzon doesnt get enough credit for that win or his wins over the tricky griffin. He also beat one of the biggest punching fighters around in that era in valdes twice, and seen as you want to mention top ten rated fighters by the ring monzon also beat alot of them, boggs, licata, jean claude bouttier, tonna, bennie brisco, tony mudine, and also beat hall of famers nino and emile twice. He retired champion and is the greatest middleweight ever!

[TheGreatA]

Well beating past there prime fighters is what pat lawlor and william joppy did against duran! not carlos. When monzon beat Napoles, he was considred one of the best pound for pound fighters in the world and one of the greatest ever welters, look at what one time past his prime welter leanard did against hagler! monzon doesnt get enough credit for that win or his wins over the tricky griffin. He also beat one of the biggest punching fighters around in that era in valdes twice, and seen as you want to mention top ten rated fighters by the ring monzon also beat alot of them, boggs, licata, jean claude bouttier, tonna, bennie brisco, tony mudine, and also beat hall of famers nino and emile twice. He retired champion and is the greatest middleweight ever!

Monzon should get more credit for his first win over Griffith than his win over Napoles.

Many people think Napoles was actually at his best as a lightweight but stepped up to welterweight because no one wanted to fight him. He had no business fighting at 160, it was a hopeless attempt.

Griffith was a great welterweight and a good middleweight who actually gave an underprepared Monzon a lot of trouble in the rematch.

Benvenuti was at his best as a light middleweight although he went onto hold the middleweight title which he won from Griffith. When he fought Monzon he was coming off a loss to **** Tiger, a TKO loss to journeyman Tom Bethea (both fights were non-title bouts) and retired after losing to journeyman Chirino and a rematch to Monzon.

[cotto16]

Monzon should get more credit for his first win over Griffith than his win over Napoles.

Many people think Napoles was actually at his best as a lightweight but stepped up to welterweight because no one wanted to fight him. He had no business fighting at 160, it was a hopeless attempt.

Griffith was a great welterweight and a good middleweight who actually gave an underprepared Monzon a lot of trouble in the rematch.

Benvenuti was at his best as a light middleweight although he went onto hold the middleweight title which he won from Griffith. When he fought Monzon he was coming off a loss to **** Tiger, a TKO loss to journeyman Tom Bethea (both fights were non-title bouts) and retired after losing to journeyman Chirino and a rematch to Monzon.

Napoles beat emile with out much problem, and napoles grew into welterweight he even blamed weight cutting for his poor performance against stacey saying he drained him self makeing the weight. Going into the monzon fight alot of expects said napoles was the best all round fighter in the sport, and alot of experts were predicting he would dazzle monzon with his speed and footwork Monzon stopped him in 7 rounds. Nino always was at his best for the big fights! the same as la motta who lost some non title fights while he was champion, nino was know also for fighting better in rematches monzon stopped him quicker 2nd time round. Also just shows you how good monzon is he had to lose 4 pounds day of fight weigh in, spar 3 rounds and run a couple of miles and still beat hall of famer and good all round fighter emile giffith.

[TheGreatA]

Napoles beat emile with out much problem, and napoles grew into welterweight he even blamed weight cutting for his poor performance against stacey saying he drained him self makeing the weight. Going into the monzon fight alot of expects said napoles was the best all round fighter in the sport, and alot of experts were predicting he would dazzle monzon with his speed and footwork Monzon stopped him in 7 rounds. Nino always was at his best for the big fights! the same as la motta who lost some non title fights while he was champion, nino was know also for fighting better in rematches monzon stopped him quicker 2nd time round. Also just shows you how good monzon is he had to lose 4 pounds day of fight weigh in, spar 3 rounds and run a couple of miles and still beat hall of famer and good all round fighter emile giffith.

Not according to this article:

"And plenty of color, too, was needed to still certain doubts. Any meeting of two world champions must be a prestigious occasion, but there were the obvious seeds of a mismatch in this one, as well as a strong geriatric flavor. Napoles is officially 33 years old but everybody grins when this figure is mentioned, even his manager, Kid Rapidez. Napoles could have rejuvenated himself by two or three years when he went to Mexico from Cuba with new papers. And Monzon—assuming his age is correct—is 31. Mismatch elements were even less in doubt. Monzon had a five-inch advantage in reach over Napoles and possibly a 10-pound advantage in ring weight."

"The cliche�s were right; Napoles was too old and short and light, though heartbreakingly brave. Dundee had asked him if he wanted to go on. "I can't see anything at all," he had answered simply."

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.c...8283/index.htm

The Stracey fight was his last. He couldn't make 147 at that age and he couldn't compete at 160 either. There were rumours that he was much older than he said he was.

You would be wrong about Benvenuti who was an incredibly consistent fighter until his 30's, going the first 65 of his fights unbeaten, losing a robbery of a decision to Ki Soo Kim in Kim's hometown, going up in weight to beat Emile Griffith for the middleweight, losing a close majority decision and regaining the title in their third meeting.

After the trilogy with Griffith it was clear that Benvenuti was past his prime. He drew with unheralded Doyle Baird, struggled with Don Fullmer, lost a non-title bout to near 40 year old **** Tiger, won a DQ against Scott and knocked out welterweight Luis Manuel Rodriguez which was his last great performance. After this it all went downhill for him as he split a pair of fights with journeyman Tom Bethea, was brutally knocked out by Carlos Monzon, lost a close decision to journeyman Chirino and in his last career fight was demolished in three by Monzon.

The decision in the second fight against Griffith was disputed, many thought Griffith had actually won. Griffith was way past it at this point, he was coming off a DQ loss and a draw and he never won another big one afterwards, losing 10 out of his last 20 fights, some to complete nobodies he would've easily handled in his prime.

[cotto16]

Not according to this article:

"And plenty of color, too, was needed to still certain doubts. Any meeting of two world champions must be a prestigious occasion, but there were the obvious seeds of a mismatch in this one, as well as a strong geriatric flavor. Napoles is officially 33 years old but everybody grins when this figure is mentioned, even his manager, Kid Rapidez. Napoles could have rejuvenated himself by two or three years when he went to Mexico from Cuba with new papers. And Monzon—assuming his age is correct—is 31. Mismatch elements were even less in doubt. Monzon had a five-inch advantage in reach over Napoles and possibly a 10-pound advantage in ring weight."

"The cliche�s were right; Napoles was too old and short and light, though heartbreakingly brave. Dundee had asked him if he wanted to go on. "I can't see anything at all," he had answered simply."

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.c...8283/index.htm

The Stracey fight was his last. He couldn't make 147 at that age and he couldn't compete at 160 either. There were rumours that he was much older than he said he was.

You would be wrong about Benvenuti who was an incredibly consistent fighter until his 30's, going the first 65 of his fights unbeaten, losing a robbery of a decision to Ki Soo Kim in Kim's hometown, going up in weight to beat Emile Griffith for the middleweight, losing a close majority decision and regaining the title in their third meeting.

After the trilogy with Griffith it was clear that Benvenuti was past his prime. He drew with unheralded Doyle Baird, struggled with Don Fullmer, lost a non-title bout to near 40 year old **** Tiger, won a DQ against Scott and knocked out welterweight Luis Manuel Rodriguez which was his last great performance. After this it all went downhill for him as he split a pair of fights with journeyman Tom Bethea, was brutally knocked out by Carlos Monzon, lost a close decision to journeyman Chirino and in his last career fight was demolished in three by Monzon.

The decision in the second fight against Griffith was disputed, many thought Griffith had actually won. Griffith was way past it at this point, he was coming off a DQ loss and a draw and he never won another big one afterwards, losing 10 out of his last 20 fights, some to complete nobodies he would've easily handled in his prime.

Ring magazine and alot of other boxing mags asked the experts and alot were saying Napoles, could outbox ann dazzle Monzon with speed and footwork.

And Pep can't talk really when it come to facing smaller men, he beat Manuel Ortiz who stepped up half a stone to face Pep.which is considered his best win along with Sandy.

Going into the Nino fight, alot of people were picking Nino against Monzon as he'd won every rematchhe'd been in.

Over the hill is Duran against Joppy, not Griffith or Nino against Monzon.

[TheGreatA]

Ring magazine and alot of other boxing mags asked the experts and alot were saying Napoles, could outbox ann dazzle Monzon with speed and footwork.

And Pep can't talk really when it come to facing smaller men, he beat Manuel Ortiz who stepped up half a stone to face Pep.which is considered his best win along with Sandy.

Going into the Nino fight, alot of people were picking Nino against Monzon as he'd won every rematchhe'd been in.

Over the hill is Duran against Joppy, not Griffith or Nino against Monzon.

These "experts" would've been overlooking Monzon's obvious physical advantages then as well as the age factor. The fact is that Napoles seemed overmatched, not because he was inferior as a boxer but because he was simply not young or strong enough to compete with Monzon. He never made the mistake of fighting as a middleweight again.

Benvenuti won rematches against fighters that he should've easily beaten the first time around. It was clear that Benvenuti was not the same, losing a decision to Fermin Chirino in between and being demolished in just 3 rounds by Monzon. He was done which is why he retired.

Ortiz was a natural bantamweight but he was more than capable of fighting at featherweight. It is not like Pep was a big featherweight, both were the same height.

Ortiz had wins over Enrique Bolanos, Carlos Chavez, Lauro Salas as a featherweight.

He was also at the peak of his boxing career when he fought Pep who decisively outboxed him.

Pep fought many ranked lightweights but Monzon never stepped up against the light heavyweights.