Stanley Ketchel

[LondonRingRules]

What constitutes a good portion, though, LRR?

I'm just asking because, as far as I know, I've never heard of there being more than apx 20 minutes of footage that has remained available through the years, and for a fight that went the full 20 rounds (60 minutes of action), that's really not enough to give an accurate indication on the whole fight.

Maybe you have more than that, though? *shrugs*

** Natch, that and a copy of the 2nd Tunney/Greb fight, some John L sparring and workout sessions, and an undated James Figg cudgel clip.

Naw, imagine I have the usual tape being circulated which I can't view anymore since it got eaten by my vcr. It was edited to progressive clips of the fight's rounds, and there was no difference in the style of the fight, Ketchel ferociously ****ing away, and Papke grabbing and absorbing a hiding.

I rate Ketchel quite highly because of in 75% KO ratio, equivilent to around 95% in today's terms. That was a dreary era of NC/NDs and it's telling when a fighter comes along and eliminates most speculation against the era's best.

Papke shows a major decline in his career after this series. I'm aware of Ketchel's lifestyle which included rumors of opium addiction, but Stanley was one of the most dynamic fighters who ever lived during his brief life. Seeing as the Langford result changed yet again on boxrec, I don't think we can claim he backed out of the rematch because of fear of Langford in a competitive bout.

What we have is the results of his final three fights in those final few weeks against excellent comp resulting in 3 early KOs. Maybe he does go on a 4 month bender before being murdered, but I wouldn't put much credence in era doctor's pronouncements other than it appears he had some kind of problem. It was my understanding he was in training when killed, not the signs of a fighter on his deathbed from alcohol and opium addiction.

He seems like one of those fighters destined to be shrouded in a certain amount of mystery, which makes a much better day when his name and legend come up for discussion.

[LDJB81]

Yeah i got one of the Ketchel Papke fights, shame Ketchel's career was cut short.

would you be able to upload it mate???????

[Yogi]

Seeing as the Langford result changed yet again on boxrec, I don't think we can claim he backed out of the rematch because of fear of Langford in a competitive bout.

What we have is the results of his final three fights in those final few weeks against excellent comp resulting in 3 early KOs. Maybe he does go on a 4 month bender before being murdered, but I wouldn't put much credence in era doctor's pronouncements other than it appears he had some kind of problem. It was my understanding he was in training when killed, not the signs of a fighter on his deathbed from alcohol and opium addiction.

He seems like one of those fighters destined to be shrouded in a certain amount of mystery, which makes a much better day when his name and legend come up for discussion.

Nah, I'm not suggesting that Ketchel backed out of that particular Langford rematch due to him having fear of Sam, but rather he did so because of the poor physical condition he was in. See, they were all signed to a deal to face each in a long distance fight in early July (originally scheduled for July 2nd, later changed to the 4th for the morning of Johnson/Jeffries in Reno), and would have been fighting for a promoter by the name of Sid hester, who had the financial backing to put on the fight from of one, Tom O'Day. But, according to Hester, the fight was called off for the following reason, and this quotes of his can be found in many different sources dated June 24th, 1910 (NY Tribune, Times Dispatch, SF Call, etc., etc.);

"I am in receipt of authentic information that Ketchel has not been taking proper care of himself and is not now and could not get into proper fighting shape. Rather than burden the people of Reno with a match of this sort, I have decided to wash my hands of the whole affair and call it off. Langford, so far as I know, is in fine condition and would enter the ring willingly. As for Ketchel--well, that's another story." - Hester

Also, I don't know if we can really put too much stock in Ketchel's performance against Langford in their original go, because it was a very common opinion, according those sitting at ringside watching in Philly and reporting on the fight, that Langford was by no means attempting to give his best effort in that six rounder between the two. Most say that it was only competitive because Langford chose to make it so.

As far as those last three fights and knockouts of Ketchel's go...He still had a punch and he caught them. The cautiousness he was said to have showed in there against Flynn and Lewis isn't worth pikcing on because he got the business done soon enough with his power still on display. But the fight with Smith? Reading the reports out of New York (where the fight took place), that doesn't sound like a typical Ketchel performance for a fighter you may be thinking was still at or close to his best, as, for one example, the NY Tribune had things like this to say in the postfight writeup dated June 11th, 1910;

"He (Smith) outpointed Ketchel in the first round, solving the open defense of the champion in a apparently easy fashion, and drove him about the ring with right and left swings to the body and head."

"In the fourth round Smith rocked Ketchel from head to heels and sent him staggering from a vicious right swing to the jaw."

"His (Ketchel) judgement of distance was wofully poor, and he missed many opening by wide margins."

"The famous 'Ketchel shift' worked to poor advantage, and Smith beat the champion to the punch time and time again."

The finish of the fight was almost described as a one punch knockout from a fighter who was behind in the fight with them describing Ketchel as being "drove across the ring" just before the finishing blow, which apparently came when Ketchel "backed away and, measuring the oncoming Smith, swung his right. The blow landed squarely, and Smith crashed to the mat." This writer for the NY Tribune didn't seem too impressed with Ketchel's performance at all against a fighter I certainly wouldn't call "excellant" (as you did, LRR), and save for him showing he still had the power, it sounded like it was mostly a troubling and poor performance put forth by Ketchel in what ended up being the final fight of his life.

Anyways, I've heard/read in the past that he was supposedly in training for a Johnson rematch myself, but those readings have only been in stories written nearly a hundred years after the fact. yet, I read what was said during the actual time, and quotes from even Ketchel himself suggest the exact opposite when he was quoted on Sept 10th, 1910 as saying that he was "giving no thought to the fight game", and that if he ever did get back into the ring he would "expect to go out after the best I can find, but not Johnson". There's other quotes of similiar nature too from even after that exact point in time, but before his death, that illustrate the same thing in regards to a Johnson rematch, but it would require some digging that I don't have the time for right now. He also stated that if he did get back into condition for fighting it wouldn't be til apx the following December, which is also what he alluded to just a couple of days before he was killed (printed Oct 13th in a wire report out of Missouri) when he was quoted as saying that it was a "cinch I won't fight for a year", "maybe I'll have more fights and maybe I won't" and that he was "instructed to rest and take on some weight" (him being described as "thin and pallid" during his very last days). Also in the same article dated Oct 13th, stated that his friends were happy that he was "abadoning the ring", and also stated that "he has dropped all training and has gone back to smoking".

As the writers of the time, Ketchel's friends, aquantances, and even Ketchel himself expressed on multiple occasions during the last couple months of his life, I'm not sure he would have came back to the ring had he not been killed. But even if he did, what I've read on him illustrates that's it's unlikely that he comes even close to the form he showed in his earlier fights, especially considering many writings expressed the opinion that he was already on the downside as a fighter from even before he went on what you called this "four month binge".

I think he was all but done as a fighter, LRR, but like you, I also certainly view Ketchel as one of the true greats that have ever fought at middleweight. No doubt I view him as such.

[wmute]

I wish all the discussions on Boxingscene were on this level. Good K boys

[JAB5239]

I wish all the discussions on Boxingscene were on this level. Good K boys

Funny, but I was thinking the same thing yesterday. Informative AND civil. You hardly ever get those two things at the same time through an entire thread.

[Yogi]

Cheers gentlemen.

[phallus]

It's certainly a shame that his life was cut short, but as far as his career goes, I think his legacy in the sport has only benefitted from the timing of his murder to be honest.

Because of his heavy drinking and other out of the ring lifestyle choices, Ketchel was in a really, really bad way physically over the last few months of his life, and there's even some reports that, just before he did die, he was told by doctors that he wouldn't live out the year if he continued on the same path that he had chosen.

Fighting? He was pretty much done with the sport at that point, I do believe, as he was cancelling fights with Langford and later, Bill Lang, because of his poor physical condition and health issues, and the reports and quotes from him and his friends after the Lang cancellation in Aug of 1910 pretty much stated that it was unlikely that he ever fought again.

Some quick examples from the last couple of months before his death in 1910;


"New York, Aug 18 - It was news in sporting circles today that Stanley Ketchel, the middleweight titleholder, has suffered a severe breakdown, and has been ordered to go to his home in Michigan for a long rest. According to some of the well-informed, his condition is so serious that it is doubtful whether he will ever be able to indulge in a championship fight again."

"Grand Rapids, Mich, Aug 29 - Middleweight Champion Stanley Ketchel, today began a course of systematic resting on his farm near Belmot, after reluctantly admitting that he is in bad shape and may have to hand his title over to Hugo Kelly without evevr fighting again."


There's much more of those types of quotes from that time, and even when the reports came out that he was murdered, he was still being described as "thin and pallid" at the time, and there's also statements by his friends and others close to him saying straight out that he "would never fight again".

Even if you go back to earlier in the year, say to the six rounder with Frank Klaus, you'll see opinions/statements stating that Ketchel was not the same fighter he used to be, and physically he only decreased from there on out. If he somehow managed to get himself "recuperated" some (would have been really, really, tough), and did enter the ring again, those back then would have likely only have been looking at a shell of a once great fighter, I believe, and I'm thinking it would be only a drastic downhill slope from there...Thus, like I stated, I think the timing of his death has only helped his boxing legacy because his career was spared that stage of things.

I wish all the discussions on Boxingscene were on this level. Good K boys

very interesting stuff indeed, i have an old boxing book and it has the widely spread propaganda about the papke throat punch being the reason ketchel lost. that story must have really got around

sorry to hijack the thread but, Yogi, where do you rate harry greb as an all time middleweight?

[StarshipTrooper]

Funny, but I was thinking the same thing yesterday. Informative AND civil. You hardly ever get those two things at the same time through an entire thread.

They are rare: Savor the moment!

[The Jackal]

Very very intresting character indeed! I was reading a new article about him the other day (**** all new in it tho) where it suggested they should make a movie on him and i cant agree more!

BTW when does this Joe Louis movie ive been hearing about come out or the new Tyson one? I mean in the UK


I was curious how hard people think Ketchel hit, who's power would u compare his with today?

No 1 could hit as hard as Ketchel today

[Yogi]

sorry to hijack the thread but, Yogi, where do you rate harry greb as an all time middleweight?

Ah, I'm not really big on ranking fighters most days, my friend, but if I was ranking history's great middleweights, Greb would be right near, or even at the very top of such a thing.