Stanley Ketchel

[The Jackal]

He actually fought Papke 4 times going 3-1(1) against him. The first Ketchel won a 10 round decision. The second fight of theirs is somewhat infamous as Papke sucker punched Ketchel as he went to touch gloves. Ketchel never recovered and was stopped in 12 and lost the middleweight championship. The third fight Ketchel had spread rumors that he had been drinking a lot and not training. It was quite the opposite, and Stanley gave Papke a good beating before stopping him in the 11th to become the first man to regain the middleweight title. The 4th fight was a 20 round UD in Ketchels favor. I haven't found a lot on fights 1 and 4, but there is a ton of info on the two middle fights (no youtube video).

Ketchel also fought the great Sam Langford and lost a 6 round newspaper decision, as well as beating Philidelphia Jack O'Brien a couple of times. O'Brien is considered one of the all time great lightheavies and Ketchel mauled him twice.

Thanks for that man il have a look on YouTube know i have the 4th fight between Ketchel & Papke i didn't know he went distance with Sam Langford & Jack O Brien he must have been able to carry his punch up with him as seen in the Johnson fight but i believe Johnson had a broken hand for that fight or some injury to his hand Ketchel has to be up there with all the great MDS

[Yogi]

He actually fought Papke 4 times going 3-1(1) against him. The first Ketchel won a 10 round decision. The second fight of theirs is somewhat infamous as Papke sucker punched Ketchel as he went to touch gloves. Ketchel never recovered and was stopped in 12 and lost the middleweight championship. The third fight Ketchel had spread rumors that he had been drinking a lot and not training. It was quite the opposite, and Stanley gave Papke a good beating before stopping him in the 11th to become the first man to regain the middleweight title. The 4th fight was a 20 round UD in Ketchels favor. I haven't found a lot on fights 1 and 4, but there is a ton of info on the two middle fights (no youtube video).

No offense, Jab, but this part here on his series with Papke seems to be a little too much in Ketchel's favour for my liking, and for a couple of reasons.

First off, I do believe time has exaggerated this so called "sucker punch" that Papke was said to have caught Ketchel with at the beginning of their second fight, as Papke did shake hands with Ketchel upon entering the ring, and Jeffries did call 'time' to begin the festivities before Papke threw what was described in the California papers at the time as a "lead left hand" (a simple jab, maybe?) as the first punch of the fight. Also, if you were to read some of the round-by-rounds of it, nobody reported that that punch (which, again, may have only been a jab) had hurt Ketchel in any way, as for the first half of the first round he was said to have been giving as good as he got against Papke until being caught him with a "right and left to the face" that knocked him down apx halfway through the round (they wrote that this was at 1:20) and left him "groggy" from being caught with those.

Also, read the comments of Ketchel and his manager in the postfight, and they had no complaints about this so-called "sucker" shot that Papke was said to have landed, with Joe O'Connor saying staright out in the immediate aftermath that; "There's nothing to it. The better man won. You can see for yourself how my man looks. How could I do anything?".

And hey, might as well throw Papke's postfight comments in there, as well; "I always knew I was the better man. You notice I didn't shake hands with him. The time we fought before he hit me when I shook hands with him, and this time I took no chances."

Hmmm...and then I reread the fight reports from the papers of the time of their first fight, and while I don't see any outright mention of any sort of "sucker punch" by Ketchel, which Papke claimed, I do see that writings stating that "The first blow of the fight, a right to the jaw, sent Papke to his knees and took some of the fight out of him" or another round-by round which states that "Papke was knocked to his knees immediately"...

Who's suckering whom I wonder?

Anyways, that's just to touch on that some, but as far as the fourth fight between the two goes, Ketchel may have been lucky to get the referee's decision in that one if you read the papers from the time that were covering it. It seems Ketchel won the majority of the first half of the fight according to the reports, but Papke was said to have had much the better over the last half of the fight with Ketchel in rough shape at the end, and did enough to convince most of the crowd (who, as reported in the SF Call, called the referee a "robber", "thief", "burglar" when he gave his verdict to Ketchel), as well as those in the press who were covering it that he deserved to win the decision. It seems like a close fight, though (e.g. that same SF Call scored it 9-8-3 in Papke's favour), and everyone reported on how largely disappointing Ketchel's effort was, although giving him the benefit of the doubt, he did claim to have broken his right hand at some point in the fight. Sill, while BoxRec may have it listed as a UD, there was absolutely nothing unanimous about the verdict given to him in that fourth fight between the two.

[JAB5239]

No offense, Jab, but this part here on his series with Papke seems to be a little too much in Ketchel's favour for my liking, and for a couple of reasons.

First off, I do believe time has exaggerated this so called "sucker punch" that Papke was said to have caught Ketchel with at the beginning of their second fight, as Papke did shake hands with Ketchel upon entering the ring, and Jeffries did call 'time' to begin the festivities before Papke threw what was described in the California papers at the time as a "lead left hand" (a simple jab, maybe?) as the first punch of the fight. Also, if you were to read some of the round-by-rounds of it, nobody reported that that punch (which, again, may have only been a jab) had hurt Ketchel in any way, as for the first half of the first round he was said to have been giving as good as he got against Papke until being caught him with a "right and left to the face" that knocked him down apx halfway through the round (they wrote that this was at 1:20) and left him "groggy" from being caught with those.

Also, read the comments of Ketchel and his manager in the postfight, and they had no complaints about this so-called "sucker" shot that Papke was said to have landed, with Joe O'Connor saying staright out in the immediate aftermath that; "There's nothing to it. The better man won. You can see for yourself how my man looks. How could I do anything?".

And hey, might as well throw Papke's postfight comments in there, as well; "I always knew I was the better man. You notice I didn't shake hands with him. The time we fought before he hit me when I shook hands with him, and this time I took no chances."

Hmmm...and then I reread the fight reports from the papers of the time of their first fight, and while I don't see any outright mention of any sort of "sucker punch" by Ketchel, which Papke claimed, I do see that writings stating that "The first blow of the fight, a right to the jaw, sent Papke to his knees and took some of the fight out of him" or another round-by round which states that "Papke was knocked to his knees immediately"...

Who's suckering whom I wonder?

Anyways, that's just to touch on that some, but as far as the fourth fight between the two goes, Ketchel may have been lucky to get the referee's decision in that one if you read the papers from the time that were covering it. It seems Ketchel won the majority of the first half of the fight according to the reports, but Papke was said to have had much the better over the last half of the fight with Ketchel in rough shape at the end, and did enough to convince most of the crowd (who, as reported in the SF Call, called the referee a "robber", "thief", "burglar" when he gave his verdict to Ketchel), as well as those in the press who were covering it that he deserved to win the decision. It seems like a close fight, though (e.g. that same SF Call scored it 9-8-3 in Papke's favour), and everyone reported on how largely disappointing Ketchel's effort was, although giving him the benefit of the doubt, he did claim to have broken his right hand at some point in the fight. Sill, while BoxRec may have it listed as a UD, there was absolutely nothing unanimous about the verdict given to him in that fourth fight between the two.

No offense taken my friend. It seems I may have just read the popularized versions of fight two. I appreciate the education.

[Yogi]

No offense taken my friend. It seems I may have just read the popularized versions of fight two. I appreciate the education.

Here's something (part that matters from this fight report) which may be the best detailing of the start of the fight I've read, and this is from a fight report coming out of Los Angeles and dated, Sept 8th, 1908;


'The bell rang. Coming together in midring the two fighters looked as well matched as two marbles from the same mould. Ketchel held out his hand to shake, but Papke, who had already announced that he would not shake hands after the bell because Ketchel had taken advantage of the shake in Milwaukee to get in the first blow, held back and fell to fiddling. "Go on and fight," he growled between set teeth. Ketchel slipped away sideways, still holding out his right hand and with the left poised for one of his famous shifts.

Papke rushed and Ketchel whipped the left over to his mouth. Instantly the Thunderbolt forced in against the blow and landed a brace of savage rights and lefts beating Ketchel back into a corner. Here they mixed it furiously, both landing.

Then of a sudden Papke's right thudded against Ketchel's cheekbone*, knocking him flat on his back, while Ketchel struggled to rise, sprawled over on his hands and knees and turned his head toward his corner in a bewildered manner. That fearful, crushing blow had damaged him like a wooden mallet...."


*Ketchel himself later described that right hand as the deciding punch in the first round, as he stated that he recieved optical nerve damage from in and whatnot. Not some "sucker punch" that some modern day writers would have you believe, and in fact, this report describes Ketchel as throwing the first (or first meaningful punch) in the fight with his own left hand, as well as some other punches when "they mixed it furiously". Most other reports that I've read describe Papke throwing a lead left (again, maybe a jab?), but this report here must have not seen it, or maybe thought that it was of no consequence for being worthy of mentioning. Then again, even those who do mention the lead left give it very little importance, and certainly don't give any credence to it have any sort of effect on Ketchel when it was thrown and/or landed.

Just some expansion of that, that's all, Jab.

[Davros?]

Yeah i got one of the Ketchel Papke fights, shame Ketchel's career was cut short.

[JAB5239]

Here's something (part that matters from this fight report) which may be the best detailing of the start of the fight I've read, and this is from a fight report coming out of Los Angeles and dated, Sept 8th, 1908;


'The bell rang. Coming together in midring the two fighters looked as well matched as two marbles from the same mould. Ketchel held out his hand to shake, but Papke, who had already announced that he would not shake hands after the bell because Ketchel had taken advantage of the shake in Milwaukee to get in the first blow, held back and fell to fiddling. "Go on and fight," he growled between set teeth. Ketchel slipped away sideways, still holding out his right hand and with the left poised for one of his famous shifts.

Papke rushed and Ketchel whipped the left over to his mouth. Instantly the Thunderbolt forced in against the blow and landed a brace of savage rights and lefts beating Ketchel back into a corner. Here they mixed it furiously, both landing.

Then of a sudden Papke's right thudded against Ketchel's cheekbone*, knocking him flat on his back, while Ketchel struggled to rise, sprawled over on his hands and knees and turned his head toward his corner in a bewildered manner. That fearful, crushing blow had damaged him like a wooden mallet...."


*Ketchel himself later described that right hand as the deciding punch in the first round, as he stated that he recieved optical nerve damage from in and whatnot. Not some "sucker punch" that some modern day writers would have you believe, and in fact, this report describes Ketchel as throwing the first (or first meaningful punch) in the fight with his own left hand, as well as some other punches when "they mixed it furiously". Most other reports that I've read describe Papke throwing a lead left (again, maybe a jab?), but this report here must have not seen it, or maybe thought that it was of no consequence for being worthy of mentioning. Then again, even those who do mention the lead left give it very little importance, and certainly don't give any credence to it have any sort of effect on Ketchel when it was thrown and/or landed.

Just some expansion of that, that's all, Jab.

Its all good Yogi. Like I said, I appreciate the education. Im sure you have also read the same stuff as I have, yet you've done more research. I got no problem being wrong when presented with more facts than I've provided. Better to learn something than to try to keep arguing the same thing in the face of new (to me) evidence. Keep up the good work!

[Yogi]

Yeah i got one of the Ketchel Papke fights, shame Ketchel's career was cut short.

It's certainly a shame that his life was cut short, but as far as his career goes, I think his legacy in the sport has only benefitted from the timing of his murder to be honest.

Because of his heavy drinking and other out of the ring lifestyle choices, Ketchel was in a really, really bad way physically over the last few months of his life, and there's even some reports that, just before he did die, he was told by doctors that he wouldn't live out the year if he continued on the same path that he had chosen.

Fighting? He was pretty much done with the sport at that point, I do believe, as he was cancelling fights with Langford and later, Bill Lang, because of his poor physical condition and health issues, and the reports and quotes from him and his friends after the Lang cancellation in Aug of 1910 pretty much stated that it was unlikely that he ever fought again.

Some quick examples from the last couple of months before his death in 1910;


"New York, Aug 18 - It was news in sporting circles today that Stanley Ketchel, the middleweight titleholder, has suffered a severe breakdown, and has been ordered to go to his home in Michigan for a long rest. According to some of the well-informed, his condition is so serious that it is doubtful whether he will ever be able to indulge in a championship fight again."

"Grand Rapids, Mich, Aug 29 - Middleweight Champion Stanley Ketchel, today began a course of systematic resting on his farm near Belmot, after reluctantly admitting that he is in bad shape and may have to hand his title over to Hugo Kelly without evevr fighting again."


There's much more of those types of quotes from that time, and even when the reports came out that he was murdered, he was still being described as "thin and pallid" at the time, and there's also statements by his friends and others close to him saying straight out that he "would never fight again".

Even if you go back to earlier in the year, say to the six rounder with Frank Klaus, you'll see opinions/statements stating that Ketchel was not the same fighter he used to be, and physically he only decreased from there on out. If he somehow managed to get himself "recuperated" some (would have been really, really, tough), and did enter the ring again, those back then would have likely only have been looking at a shell of a once great fighter, I believe, and I'm thinking it would be only a drastic downhill slope from there...Thus, like I stated, I think the timing of his death has only helped his boxing legacy because his career was spared that stage of things.

[LondonRingRules]

as far as the fourth fight between the two goes, Ketchel may have been lucky to get the referee's decision in that one if you read the papers from the time that were covering it. It seems Ketchel won the majority of the first half of the fight according to the reports, but Papke was said to have had much the better over the last half of the fight with Ketchel in rough shape at the end,

** Unless my tape is mislabeled, I have a good portion of the 4th fight, and believe you me it is lopsided Ketchel all the way. Papke made John Ruiz look like a one armed octopus compared to what he laid on Ketchel.

Gotta throw more than a handful of candy to win a fight, not to mention that Papke could be arrested for indecency for that cheeky little outfit he wore. Looked like Papke was in the wrong business and I see little in his record to see he was ever more than a minor bother to Ketchel.

Ketchel has a ferocious work rate throwing every imaginable punch in between having to grapple with Papke. Bout the only compliment I can give Papke is he could soak up lots of punishment.

[Yogi]

** Unless my tape is mislabeled, I have a good portion of the 4th fight, and believe you me it is lopsided Ketchel all the way. Papke made John Ruiz look like a one armed octopus compared to what he laid on Ketchel.

Gotta throw more than a handful of candy to win a fight, not to mention that Papke could be arrested for indecency for that cheeky little outfit he wore. Looked like Papke was in the wrong business and I see little in his record to see he was ever more than a minor bother to Ketchel.

Ketchel has a ferocious work rate throwing every imaginable punch in between having to grapple with Papke. Bout the only compliment I can give Papke is he could soak up lots of punishment.

What constitutes a good portion, though, LRR?

I'm just asking because, as far as I know, I've never heard of there being more than apx 20 minutes of footage that has remained available through the years, and for a fight that went the full 20 rounds (60 minutes of action), that's really not enough to give an accurate indication on the whole fight.

Maybe you have more than that, though? *shrugs*

Either or, reading the fight reports it certainly seems that it was like two fights in one with Ketchel having the big lead over the course of the first 11 rounds (Papke was given credit for the 3rd and 5th, with a couple more being even), with his best work said to have been around the 9th and 10th. Papke was said to have almost nearly taken the last nine rounds in succession, save for the 16th (a lacklustre one, apparently, and judged even by the writer), and in the final tally, was given credit for one more round than was Ketchel through the whole fight.

Maybe all, or the majority, of the footage left over is possibly from the first half of the fight when Ketchel had the clear advantage, possibly?

[The Monk]

Good stuff in this thread guys. I wish I knew more about the fighters from the early 20th century (I am trying to learn).

Ketchel is a fighter I am particularly interested in and I had his pic as my avi for a while. From the snippets I have read on him he seems a complete beast KO'ing fighters much larger in him and even flooring the great Jack Johnson. His KO percentage is mighty impressive. Its a shame footage on him is rare and that his life was so cruelly taken away in his prime; just imagine how even more great he could have been.