Various boxing historians ramk the all time best Heavyweights

[LondonRingRules]

Jeffries, Fitzsimmons & Corbett???? Even the likes of Floyd Patterson beats those 3!

** My dearest chap, I hope your jockstrap is more substantial than your boxing acumen.

I don't care for Fleischers list, but at least he could pen a stellar analysis of his opinion unlike you.

I can guarantee that under the rules of the day, 25-40 rd fights in 3-4oz horsehair gloves that Fitz and Jeffries would knock out Floyd. You best lead a righteous life so you can go to heaven and see these bouts.

Floyd would have great difficulties with Corbetts footwork and defense. The man went 61 rds with a prime Peter Jackson after all whom I would definitely pick to beat Floyd.

All were supremely talented with natural fighting attributes and could easily be retrained for modern conditions that Floyd fights under.

At any rate, the usual suspects such as yourself always fail to understand greatness is not about who beats who in some ****** schoolboy fantasy match. It's about fighters who elevate themselves well beyond their peers of their era in great fights.

Any fighter can be beat in head to head competition by lesser fighters and that's proven.

[JAB5239]

** My dearest chap, I hope your jockstrap is more substantial than your boxing acumen.

I don't care for Fleischers list, but at least he could pen a stellar analysis of his opinion unlike you.

I can guarantee that under the rules of the day, 25-40 rd fights in 3-4oz horsehair gloves that Fitz and Jeffries would knock out Floyd. You best lead a righteous life so you can go to heaven and see these bouts.

Floyd would have great difficulties with Corbetts footwork and defense. The man went 61 rds with a prime Peter Jackson after all whom I would definitely pick to beat Floyd.

All were supremely talented with natural fighting attributes and could easily be retrained for modern conditions that Floyd fights under.

At any rate, the usual suspects such as yourself always fail to understand greatness is not about who beats who in some ****** schoolboy fantasy match. It's about fighters who elevate themselves well beyond their peers of their era in great fights.

Any fighter can be beat in head to head competition by lesser fighters and that's proven.

Good post! Nice to see Peter Jacksons name get some recognition.
How do you think Jackson would have fared agaist Johnson had their primes coincided?

[Terry A]

** My dearest chap, I hope your jockstrap is more substantial than your boxing acumen.

I don't care for Fleischers list, but at least he could pen a stellar analysis of his opinion unlike you.

I can guarantee that under the rules of the day, 25-40 rd fights in 3-4oz horsehair gloves that Fitz and Jeffries would knock out Floyd. You best lead a righteous life so you can go to heaven and see these bouts.

Floyd would have great difficulties with Corbetts footwork and defense. The man went 61 rds with a prime Peter Jackson after all whom I would definitely pick to beat Floyd.

All were supremely talented with natural fighting attributes and could easily be retrained for modern conditions that Floyd fights under.

At any rate, the usual suspects such as yourself always fail to understand greatness is not about who beats who in some ****** schoolboy fantasy match. It's about fighters who elevate themselves well beyond their peers of their era in great fights.

Any fighter can be beat in head to head competition by lesser fighters and that's proven.

London,
Thanks for the nice reply.

I'm going to stick with Floyd here, although to be truthful, I could just have easily named many other 2nd tier heavyweights (good but not great), such as Max Baer for example. But Floyd came to my mind 1st, so here goes with him vs your "murderer's row" of Corbett & company.

First, here's a breakdown of the fighters we mentioned.

James Corbett Record of 16 wins (4 by KO!) 4 losses, 3 draws & 3 ND
He was 6'1" and weighed in the mid 180's.
His BEST wins were KO5 Charles McCoy, KO3 Charley Mitchell, KO21 John L. Sullivan, the NC w/ Peter Jackson and W6 Jake Kilrain.

Bob Fitzsimmons was 5'11 1/2 and weighed in the upper 160's.
His record was 60 wins (50 KO)-8 losses-5 draws and 20 NC.
*****48 of his wins were against guys who were either 0-0-0 or 0-1 or worse. Did you get that? 48 of his 60 wins were against guys who had NO previous fights.
His BEST wins were KO2 Tom Sharkey, KO14 Corbett, KO1 Peter Maher and KO12 Peter Maher.

(When the all time great middleweights are discussed, the Ketchels, Grebs, Robinsons, Monzons, Hopkins, etc., how many times do you hear anyone bring up "Ruby Robert"??? How about when the all time lightheavyweights are discussed? The Archie Moores, Bob Fosters, Mike Spinks, etc. How many bring up ol' Fitz??? But YOU have him as one of the greatest HEAVYWEIGHTS ever!

Jeffries (one of my favorite old timers) stacks up way better than the previous 2. He was 6'2" & weighed around 225 or so. His record was 18 wins (15KO)-1 loss and 1 draw.
His BEST wins were KO3 Peter Jackson, W20 Tom Sharkey, KO11 Fitzsimmons, W25 Tom Sharkey, KO2 Corbett, KO8 Fitzsimmons & KO10 Corbett.

As for Floyd, well, I certainly could have picked someone better as an example, but I'll dance with who brought me.
His record was 55wins (40KO)-8 losses & 1 draw.
His BEST wins were W10 Oscar Bonavena, KO4 Henry Cooper, W12 George Chuvalo, W12 Eddie Machon, KO4 Tom McNeely, KO5 Ingemar Johansson & KO6 Ingemar Johansson, KO5 Archie Moore, W12 & KO10 Tommy Jackson and W8 Yvon Durelle.

In my opinion, Floyd beats Corbett easy and Fitzsimmons real easy. Fitzsimmons may be my pick as the worst ever heavyweight champ.

Floyd vs Big Jim...closer but I'll stick with Floyd.

Now, in winding this up, I think that guys like Archie Moore, Mike Spinks & Roy Jones beat Corbett, Fitzsimmons & Jeffries. In fact, there are loads of guys that I would pick over Corbett & Co. I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ to you like you were to me, but here's a partial list of guys who I have beating C,F & J who are not even in the elite heavyweights.....Earnie Shavers, Mike Dokes, Tony Tucker,...heck, there are too many, we'll be here all night. I really think that guys of even Marty Marshall's talent would out box your 3.

And it goes without saying that the Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Bowe, Lewis, the real upper elite group kill those guys. Even Patterson. So, again, no disrespect like you showed me, but really, how can you have Fitzsimmons over guys like Patterson, Baer, Ezzard Charles, etc? Because it sure sounds like you firmly on his bandwagon. Jeffries, I can see. Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Tommy Burns, Marvin Hart, even John L....no.

***Here's a link to Fitzsimmons record for your perusal, old chap!
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php...0552&cat=boxer

Either way we look at it, debating this stuff sure is fun!

PS-I'll even take Shannon Briggs with the "3-4 oz horsehair gloves" vs Corbett, Fitzsimmons or Jeffries. "Re-trained" or not, my list could go on and on. Jerry Quarry beats James J. Jeffries. Gerry Cooney, Ron Lyle, Ken Norton. I have to stop or I'll be here forever.

[LondonRingRules]

I think

** Ah, the source of your problem.

Next time you're on boxrec, why don't you review their disclaimer regarding records. The further back in time you go, the harder it is to shake out records of illegal ativities taking place in pastures and docks. Same deal reviewing records of African, Mexican or South American countries with poor histories of record keeping.

Thanks to Nat, US fighters are better researched as he established the model for sports archives.

Fitz didn't just go from fighting novices to blasting out HOFers like they were nothing.

I'd pick 21 yr old Tyson to blast out every champion who ever existed if you lined them up within' a few days time at an average of 6-7 per day. Only obstacle would be Foreman, but that doesn't make Tyson the best ever my dearie, because it's unprovable, like me claiming the same feat and declaring myself the best ever.

Has nothing to do with greatness of fighters.

Go on back to your silly modern boxing games and litter up utube with your nonsense, and remember, Rocky won the first computer game.

[Terry A]

Fitz didn't just go from fighting novices to blasting out HOFers like they were nothing.



Go on back to your silly modern boxing games and litter up utube with your nonsense, and remember, Rocky won the first computer game.

London,
Which "Hall of Famer's" (I noticed you made that plural) did Fitz "blast out?
Seriously, name them.....Or did BoxingRec get that wrong also??? Why don't you write to them with Fitz's real record since they missed what you have on him.

Remember, 48 of the guys he KOed were 0-0-0 or 0-1 or worse. Hardly HOF material.

Again, please point out to us just which HOFamers Fitzsimmons "blasted out."

Also, I have never posted anything on Youtube. I don't know how. But I do know that "3-4 oz horse hair" gloves or not, Ruby Rob does not deserve to be ranked ahead of Dempsey and Louis and company. From giving you good karma in the past and knowing you do have boxing knowledge, I don't know or understand why you're so high on Robert Fitzsimmons. If he was your great grandfather or something, I could understand your loyalty.

Either way, have a peaceful week my friend.

[StarshipTrooper]

London,
Which "Hall of Famer's" (I noticed you made that plural) did Fitz "blast out?
Seriously, name them.....Or did BoxingRec get that wrong also??? Why don't you write to them with Fitz's real record since they missed what you have on him.

Remember, 48 of the guys he KOed were 0-0-0 or 0-1 or worse. Hardly HOF material.

Again, please point out to us just which HOFamers Fitzsimmons "blasted out."

Also, I have never posted anything on Youtube. I don't know how. But I do know that "3-4 oz horse hair" gloves or not, Ruby Rob does not deserve to be ranked ahead of Dempsey and Louis and company. From giving you good karma in the past and knowing you do have boxing knowledge, I don't know or understand why you're so high on Robert Fitzsimmons. If he was your great grandfather or something, I could understand your loyalty.

Either way, have a peaceful week my friend.

Well Terry, let me tell you that I'M high on Ruby Robert. Not as a Heavyweight where I do not rank him but as a Middleweight where I do. Fitzsimmons fought as a Middleweight before moving on to to take out Corbett. It was at Middleweight where he first made his reputation. He was, in fact, past his prime at Heavyweight. Even so, though much is made of his two losses to Jeffries, what people seldom talk about is Fitzsimmons was tearing Jeffries up in both fights before breaking both hands in the first fight, then running out of gas in the second fight. One account noted after the first fight that Fitzsimmons was practically unmarked while Jeffries looked like he'd been assaulted with an axe. So yeah, Ruby Robert could bring it with the best of them; and remember in the twilight of his career he was the first Light-Heavyweight champion as well: It speaks volumes to his longevity.

Poet

[Terry A]

Well Terry, let me tell you that I'M high on Ruby Robert. Not as a Heavyweight where I do not rank him but as a Middleweight where I do. Fitzsimmons fought as a Middleweight before moving on to to take out Corbett. It was at Middleweight where he first made his reputation. He was, in fact, past his prime at Heavyweight. Even so, though much is made of his two losses to Jeffries, what people seldom talk about is Fitzsimmons was tearing Jeffries up in both fights before breaking both hands in the first fight, then running out of gas in the second fight. One account noted after the first fight that Fitzsimmons was practically unmarked while Jeffries looked like he'd been assaulted with an axe. So yeah, Ruby Robert could bring it with the best of them; and remember in the twilight of his career he was the first Light-Heavyweight champion as well: It speaks volumes to his longevity.

Poet

And I agree that he was a very special fighter to be able to do that to Jeffries. I never said or even implied he was a bum. As a HEAVYWEIGHT, he is probably my choice for bottom 3 of all time. I rank him middle of the pack at middlewight, probably not quite as high as you though.

And one more thing...if a guy the size of Fitz could do that to Jeffries, what would the fighters of the 1970's and beyond have done to these guys?

I'm not one of these guys who think all of today's fighters are the best ever. I actually pick many of the older fighters as the G.O.A.T. group. But as nostaligic as I am with these great champions of the past, I just can't see where his (Fitz) credentials match up better than the majority of the other men with far superior credentials.

Also, I acknowledge his longevity as being extraordinary.

[LondonRingRules]

London,
Which "Hall of Famer's" (I noticed you made that plural) did Fitz "blast out?

** Your boxrec is the same as mine, so why can't you see?

He made his name on knocking out great middle stylist and champ Jack Dempsey for his first title. He then KOed Sharkey with a body shot which he was mistakenly DQed by Wyatt Earp for using. KOed Corbett for his 2nd title with another body shot, and KOed Sharkey again with a body shot. That's four HOF fights and 4 KOs even if the official results change the first Sharkey bout.

He also drew with HOFer Choynski, gave the young Jeffries his toughest bout ever before succumbing to the much bigger man's legendary stamina and strength.

He lost his last 3 HOF fights at ages 39, 41, 42, getting KOed by Jeffries again, Obrien, and Johnson, but not before he picked up his 3rd title at age 40 over distance against highly regarded LH champ George Gardiner.

Ibro rated Fitz 20th as a heavy. Nat had reasons for rating him higher since his is the seminal legacy of early Marquis de Queensbury bouts and he was the earliest p4p fighter in history. He and Henry Armstrong are the only Ibro p4p fighters ranked in 3 divisions.

Ibro ain't Nat Fleischer so obviously there is a broad consensus on Fitz's greatness.

[hunkysoupbone]

London,
Thanks for the nice reply.

I'm going to stick with Floyd here, although to be truthful, I could just have easily named many other 2nd tier heavyweights (good but not great), such as Max Baer for example. But Floyd came to my mind 1st, so here goes with him vs your "murderer's row" of Corbett & company.

First, here's a breakdown of the fighters we mentioned.

James Corbett Record of 16 wins (4 by KO!) 4 losses, 3 draws & 3 ND
He was 6'1" and weighed in the mid 180's.
His BEST wins were KO5 Charles McCoy, KO3 Charley Mitchell, KO21 John L. Sullivan, the NC w/ Peter Jackson and W6 Jake Kilrain.

Bob Fitzsimmons was 5'11 1/2 and weighed in the upper 160's.
His record was 60 wins (50 KO)-8 losses-5 draws and 20 NC.
*****48 of his wins were against guys who were either 0-0-0 or 0-1 or worse. Did you get that? 48 of his 60 wins were against guys who had NO previous fights.
His BEST wins were KO2 Tom Sharkey, KO14 Corbett, KO1 Peter Maher and KO12 Peter Maher.

(When the all time great middleweights are discussed, the Ketchels, Grebs, Robinsons, Monzons, Hopkins, etc., how many times do you hear anyone bring up "Ruby Robert"??? How about when the all time lightheavyweights are discussed? The Archie Moores, Bob Fosters, Mike Spinks, etc. How many bring up ol' Fitz??? But YOU have him as one of the greatest HEAVYWEIGHTS ever!

Jeffries (one of my favorite old timers) stacks up way better than the previous 2. He was 6'2" & weighed around 225 or so. His record was 18 wins (15KO)-1 loss and 1 draw.
His BEST wins were KO3 Peter Jackson, W20 Tom Sharkey, KO11 Fitzsimmons, W25 Tom Sharkey, KO2 Corbett, KO8 Fitzsimmons & KO10 Corbett.

As for Floyd, well, I certainly could have picked someone better as an example, but I'll dance with who brought me.
His record was 55wins (40KO)-8 losses & 1 draw.
His BEST wins were W10 Oscar Bonavena, KO4 Henry Cooper, W12 George Chuvalo, W12 Eddie Machon, KO4 Tom McNeely, KO5 Ingemar Johansson & KO6 Ingemar Johansson, KO5 Archie Moore, W12 & KO10 Tommy Jackson and W8 Yvon Durelle.

In my opinion, Floyd beats Corbett easy and Fitzsimmons real easy. Fitzsimmons may be my pick as the worst ever heavyweight champ.

Floyd vs Big Jim...closer but I'll stick with Floyd.

Now, in winding this up, I think that guys like Archie Moore, Mike Spinks & Roy Jones beat Corbett, Fitzsimmons & Jeffries. In fact, there are loads of guys that I would pick over Corbett & Co. I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ to you like you were to me, but here's a partial list of guys who I have beating C,F & J who are not even in the elite heavyweights.....Earnie Shavers, Mike Dokes, Tony Tucker,...heck, there are too many, we'll be here all night. I really think that guys of even Marty Marshall's talent would out box your 3.

And it goes without saying that the Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Bowe, Lewis, the real upper elite group kill those guys. Even Patterson. So, again, no disrespect like you showed me, but really, how can you have Fitzsimmons over guys like Patterson, Baer, Ezzard Charles, etc? Because it sure sounds like you firmly on his bandwagon. Jeffries, I can see. Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Tommy Burns, Marvin Hart, even John L....no.

***Here's a link to Fitzsimmons record for your perusal, old chap!
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php...0552&cat=boxer

Either way we look at it, debating this stuff sure is fun!

PS-I'll even take Shannon Briggs with the "3-4 oz horsehair gloves" vs Corbett, Fitzsimmons or Jeffries. "Re-trained" or not, my list could go on and on. Jerry Quarry beats James J. Jeffries. Gerry Cooney, Ron Lyle, Ken Norton. I have to stop or I'll be here forever.

Nice, informative post and I agree with it to. On ESPN tonight, right after the Norton vs Quarry fight, on Ringside, there was a quick clip of James j. corbett sparring. It looked like a comedian was trying to imitate a fighter. He danced and pranced and flinched and ducked around before slapping his punches like Slapsie Maxie Rosembloom. Ridiculous to think that guys like him would have even a chance against modern fighters. From what I just saw of Corbett, I would pick John Tate or even Leon Spinks against him. He realy looked terrible.

[tennesseeboy]

Really neat regardless to read all of your posts. Wish i knew this much about past fighters. All of you have tremendous knowledge either way! Neat stuff.