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Marciano was overrated and not an ATG.

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  • Originally posted by Bigmacpoper View Post
    Patterson would have beaten both,Louis would never have faced Patterson regardless as Patterson fought with a pulse up until his very last fight.

    Patterson at his peak was just too good for Marciano,greatest hand speed of any heavyweight in history and that would be way too much for Marciano.
    Tell me about all the fighters Louis didn't fight.

    Then I'll tell you about all the fighters Patterson and Cus D'Amato avoided.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Bigmacpoper View Post
      Patterson would have beaten both,Louis would never have faced Patterson regardless as Patterson fought with a pulse up until his very last fight.

      Patterson at his peak was just too good for Marciano,greatest hand speed of any heavyweight in history and that would be way too much for Marciano.

      Both Rocky and Louis ko Patterrson. Floyds hand speed wasn't so good that a plodding Sonny Liston who hadn't fought in almost a year took him out in 1, twice, was it?

      Lol, you're just to damn easy!

      I noticed you had no comment about your hero Ron Lyle losing to Jimmy Young after you went to such lengths to discredit Young.

      You are definitely this sections favorite pinata.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
        Then I'll tell you about all the fighters Patterson and Cus D'Amato avoided.
        Patterson didn't avoid anybody,perhaps you forgot the whole reason Patterson let Cus D'Amato in the first place,Patterson got sick and tired of Cus D'Amato making all his fights for him and left him to go challenge himself.

        The opponents Patterson fought were still ranked heavyweights except Pete Rademacher.

        When all was said and Done, Floyd challenged and fought the best during the last decade or so of his career,he was past his prime when he fought(and should have gotten the decisions over)Jerry Quarry and Jimmy Ellis,when he fought Eddie Machen(when he was actually still ranked)A prime Muhammad Ali and the best version of post comeback Ali(who Frazier wanted nothing to do with),when he fought Oscar Bonavena.

        I've seen you defend Joe Frazier for avoiding punchers and yet I'm sure you'd have no problem listing the opponents Floyd Patterson supposedly ducked.

        Joe Frazier is given credit for fighting the George Foreman twice(even though he avoided him for over a year) and yet Floyd Patterson despite fighting Sonny Liston twice is mocked and ridiculed for getting beat the way he did.





        Originally posted by JAB5239 View Post

        Both Rocky and Louis ko Patterrson. Floyds hand speed wasn't so good that a plodding Sonny Liston who hadn't fought in almost a year took him out in 1, twice, was it?

        Lol, you're just to damn easy!

        I noticed you had no comment about your hero Ron Lyle losing to Jimmy Young after you went to such lengths to discredit Young.

        You are definitely this sections favorite pinata.

        Rocky Marciano and Joe Louis weren't Sonny Liston,neither men would have destroyed Cleveland Williams TWICE the way Sonny Liston did,regardless of what Louis nuthuggers claim,he had nowhere near the power that Liston did.

        The Dynamite tit(a true coward,still lives with his mum) put me on ignore so I couldn't respond in that thread you soppy ****,as Joe frazier apologists like to claim all the time "styles make fights" when defending their hero's pathetic efforts against foreman(truth is,that would have happened anytime frazier fought a puncher)

        Doesn't mean Young was a greater fighter than Lyle.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Bigmacpoper View Post
          Patterson didn't avoid anybody,perhaps you forgot the whole reason Patterson let Cus D'Amato in the first place,Patterson got sick and tired of Cus D'Amato making all his fights for him and left him to go challenge himself.
          According to Patterson's own words, he left D'Amato because he felt someone related to D'Amato had stolen a part of his purse, or so he felt. He said to D'Amato on his deathbed that it was never his fault.

          "There was a man close to Cus who had taken money from me," Patterson reveals today. "So close that I knew it wouldn't do any good to tell Cus, that nothing good could come from telling him."

          The man was Jimmy Jacobs, later to become, along with Bill Cayton, a co-manager of Mike Tyson. Best known in the early '60s as a national handball champion, Jacobs's passion for boxing had led to a deep friendship with D'Amato, with whom he roomed for 10 years. They had a relationship akin to that "of a very close uncle and his nephew," according to Cayton, who was then Jacobs's employer at Big Fights, Incorporated, a sports film production company. In 1962, with D'Amato's blessing, Jacobs sought a deal with Patterson to do a one-hour him retrospective on the fighter's career. Patterson would receive performance fees for taped interviews, along with a percentage of the profits from the film. Patterson says he agreed orally in D'Amato's presence, but after the one-hour special was aired on syndicated television, Patterson received nothing. "Expenses ate up all the profits, Floyd," Jacobs insisted, according to Patterson.

          Since Jacobs died in 1988, only Cayton remains to address the charges. He says, "I'm not involved in any of this, but I believe Jim would have given Floyd a fair shake. I'm sure Floyd speaks to the best of his recollection, but it is my feeling that his memory of this is simply wrong.... The memory can play tricks. We have signed contracts from 1962, you see."

          Curiously, the signed "contracts," two letters of agreement relinquishing the documentary film rights to Floyd Patterson's life story for the sum of one dollar, do not bear the fighter's signature, only Cus D'Amato's. A third letter of agreement, signed by Patterson himself in 1964, refers only to the use of excerpts from films of Patterson's fights, as part of a package chronicling famous knockouts by boxing greats.

          "Cus couldn't give away those rights to my life, in 1962—only I could do that, or only I should've been able to do that," Patterson says. "And it wasn't what Jacobs promised me. No percentage of what the film made, no fees, nothing.... Who knows what that film made? Jacobs had the records."

          "It's much fuss about nothing," says Cayton, who insists that the resulting film yielded no profits. "It took in only a little over $12,000.... Why did Floyd wait until just now to bring this up?" But a letter from Jacobs to Patterson indicates that the fighter sought copies of his contracts in 1977.

          Whatever the truth of the Jacobs-Patterson agreement and however meager the money might have been relative to Patterson's ring earnings, the dispute doomed D'Amato and his fighter. "I couldn't come at Cus with the truth," Patterson says, his voice quavering. "So I just didn't have him handling my business affairs anymore. I booked my own fights. It wasn't like I could walk away instantly, completely. He still gave me advice; he never hesitated there."

          In 1985 D'Amato lay on his deathbed in a New York City hospital. "I hung around, and we talked and talked," Patterson recalls, "but I didn't get up the nerve to tell him why I was really there. I left pretty down. A couple days later, I came back and leaned over the bed and said, 'I know you've always wondered why I walked away from you.' " Then Patterson told D'Amato of Jacobs and the film documentary and said, "I was angry. I thought you might know something about it, because you seemed to know everything.... It's not that I didn't ever want to be around you. It's that I didn't want to be around your friend."

          "You don't have to explain," D'Amato said softly—looking relieved, thought Patterson. "It's all right, Floyd."
          http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...44/3/index.htm

          The opponents Patterson fought were still ranked heavyweights except Pete Rademacher.
          And Tom McNeeley. Brian London and Roy Harris weren't exactly top ranked although Harris was fairly good. He also fought very irregularly.

          You could say the same about Joe Louis's opposition. He fought ranked opponents for the most part and a lot more regularly than Patterson did who defended his title about once or twice a year at best. Louis took on all comers.

          When all was said and Done, Floyd challenged and fought the best during the last decade or so of his career,he was past his prime when he fought(and should have gotten the decisions over)Jerry Quarry and Jimmy Ellis,when he fought Eddie Machen(when he was actually still ranked)A prime Muhammad Ali and the best version of post comeback Ali(who Frazier wanted nothing to do with),when he fought Oscar Bonavena.
          Floyd did challenge himself during the later part of his career. Still, Frazier too fought all of those men yet you accuse him of ducking people.

          I've seen you defend Joe Frazier for avoiding punchers and yet I'm sure you'd have no problem listing the opponents Floyd Patterson supposedly ducked.
          The opponents Patterson supposedly ducked were actually top ranked, not fringe contenders like Al "Blue" Lewis and "Big" Mac Foster. If you're going to accuse Frazier for not fighting punchers, what about Patterson not giving Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdes, Eddie Machen a shot while he was the champion? All of them were top 5 ranked.

          And my original question was for you to bring up the men Louis avoided. You haven't come up with a single name as of yet.

          Joe Frazier is given credit for fighting the George Foreman twice(even though he avoided him for over a year) and yet Floyd Patterson despite fighting Sonny Liston twice is mocked and ridiculed for getting beat the way he did.
          He shouldn't be ridiculed for fighting Liston. Obviously getting blasted in one round in two successive fights by the man you were accused of avoiding was a blow to his reputation but he did redeem himself.

          Rocky Marciano and Joe Louis weren't Sonny Liston,neither men would have destroyed Cleveland Williams TWICE the way Sonny Liston did,regardless of what Louis nuthuggers claim,he had nowhere near the power that Liston did.
          Who is to say that they couldn't have? Satterfield knocked a young Cleve out. Liston did not destroy everyone he fought either. Eddie Machen and journeyman Bert Whitehurst were game enough to go the distance.

          Liston had heavy hands but Louis was the better puncher of the two.



          Last edited by TheGreatA; 10-04-2009, 05:03 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
            And my original question was for you to bring up the men Louis avoided. You haven't come up with a single name as of yet.
            Well its always easiest to throw out an accusation with zero back up but i'll have a go at coming up with a couple of names.s

            Louis fought everyone put in front of him, only two fighters that I can think of that I would have liked to see him fight when he held the title were Bivins and Baksi.
            Louis wanted to fight Baksi in 46/47 before the 1st Walcott fight. Baksi in one of the worst decisions since Lincoln decided to take in a show thought he'd to pick up some easy money in Sweden before the fight and got the worst of a home town decision and knocked himself out of the running. Given that Louis was declining pretty fast and Baksi could give and take a punch he would have had a punchers chance I guess.
            Bivins you could make a case for I guess but Louis had put the title virtually on ice when Bivins was at his peak in 43 and the fight was a natural so bad timing I guess. The fact that a shadow comeback Louis beat Bivins years later probably put the argument to bed.
            I did read somewhere that when Maxie Rosenbloom was touted as a potential opponent Roxborough or Blackburn wanted no part of him but thats his team not Louis. Can't see Slapsie putting the fear of god into Louis in all honesty.

            So there are 3 names that are a real stretch.
            One fighter who blew his shot and would have had to get lucky if he had have got a shot.
            One fighter who Louis would have and did subsequently beat but whose peak unluckily coincided with the war.
            And one fighter who might have made Louis look a little clumsy but who would have got slaughtered IMO.

            Comment


            • Re the question in hand Marciano is an ATG where you place him will probably have him overated by some and underated by others but thats the same for all fighters.
              Forgive me if I quote myself from another thread but i'll put it in here as it might add (or subtract depending on your view)
              Liston I think would be a bad match up for Marciano. Though a chief part of Liston's armoury was that fighters were beaten before they got in the ring, Marciano wouldn't have been frightened. I would fancy him over Patterson and Johansson though so had Marciano had been say 25 not 29 when he won the title I could see him reigning until a 1959 Liston met him. That would push him up the rankings considerably.
              All very theoretical of course.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by GJC View Post
                Well its always easiest to throw out an accusation with zero back up but i'll have a go at coming up with a couple of names.s

                Louis fought everyone put in front of him, only two fighters that I can think of that I would have liked to see him fight when he held the title were Bivins and Baksi.
                Louis wanted to fight Baksi in 46/47 before the 1st Walcott fight. Baksi in one of the worst decisions since Lincoln decided to take in a show thought he'd to pick up some easy money in Sweden before the fight and got the worst of a home town decision and knocked himself out of the running. Given that Louis was declining pretty fast and Baksi could give and take a punch he would have had a punchers chance I guess.
                Bivins you could make a case for I guess but Louis had put the title virtually on ice when Bivins was at his peak in 43 and the fight was a natural so bad timing I guess. The fact that a shadow comeback Louis beat Bivins years later probably put the argument to bed.
                I did read somewhere that when Maxie Rosenbloom was touted as a potential opponent Roxborough or Blackburn wanted no part of him but thats his team not Louis. Can't see Slapsie putting the fear of god into Louis in all honesty.

                So there are 3 names that are a real stretch.
                One fighter who blew his shot and would have had to get lucky if he had have got a shot.
                One fighter who Louis would have and did subsequently beat but whose peak unluckily coincided with the war.
                And one fighter who might have made Louis look a little clumsy but who would have got slaughtered IMO.
                I think Louis's camp thought of Rosenbloom as a bit too much of a spoiler and the public wasn't exactly demanding such a match-up.

                Bivins had his best years while Louis was in the army. It's unfortunate they never met prime for prime but we did see a fight between the two in the 1950's when both were past it. They also fought exhibition contests (which were often like real fights) and Louis said Bivins was the toughest he ever fought in an exhibition.

                Baksi blew it as you said. He was a bit like the Chuvalo type and could give an aging Louis a tough fight.

                One man that may have had a case was Elmer 'Violent' Ray. He had a long unbeaten streak and went 1-1 with Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles, establishing himself as one of the top contenders after the war. Louis for whatever reason disliked him as a person but later agreed to fight an exhibition contest with Ray and knocked him out, finishing Elmer's boxing career.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by TheGreatA View Post
                  One man that may have had a case was Elmer 'Violent' Ray. He had a long unbeaten streak and went 1-1 with Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles, establishing himself as one of the top contenders after the war. Louis for whatever reason disliked him as a person but later agreed to fight an exhibition contest with Ray and knocked him out, finishing Elmer's boxing career.
                  Blimey thats more of a stretch than mine!
                  My memories of Ray were that one of those verdicts was a travesty and the other was debatable but cannot for the life of me remember which way round But apart from those questionable verdicts had a really padded record.
                  Think he was could knock out 3rd division fighters but got exposed every time he stepped up.

                  Think all in all my man Baksi probably would have had the best shot abeit a punchers chance just on the timing that he was fairly prime when Louis was fading fast. Also Baksi was very durable so might have stayed in there against Louis punches. Who knows? Interesting to speculate.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by GJC View Post
                    Blimey thats more of a stretch than mine!
                    My memories of Ray were that one of those verdicts was a travesty and the other was debatable but cannot for the life of me remember which way round But apart from those questionable verdicts had a really padded record.
                    Think he was could knock out 3rd division fighters but got exposed every time he stepped up.

                    Think all in all my man Baksi probably would have had the best shot abeit a punchers chance just on the timing that he was fairly prime when Louis was fading fast. Also Baksi was very durable so might have stayed in there against Louis punches. Who knows? Interesting to speculate.
                    That's pretty much the story. But even questionable victories over Charles and Walcott have to be considered somewhat of an achievement. He was very strong and aggressive which got him the nod even if he wasn't in either of their class as a boxer.

                    He did impressively KO Lee Savold in two rounds but apart from that his only other notable victory was over Turkey Thompson in the early 1940's which Thompson quickly avenged with a first round knockout.

                    In Elmer Ray's defense he was already an aging fighter by the time he actually became a contender.





                    He was a top ranked man for a while though and certainly had a case but it would be an exaggeration to say that Louis ducked him. Elmer Ray certainly didn't duck the punch with which Louis knocked him cold during an exhibition.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by GJC View Post

                      Think all in all my man Baksi probably would have had the best shot abeit a punchers chance just on the timing that he was fairly prime when Louis was fading fast. Also Baksi was very durable so might have stayed in there against Louis punches. Who knows? Interesting to speculate.
                      He would have certainly had his shot at the right moment. I imagine Rosenbloom wouldn't have too much success with a prime Louis in the 1930's, neither would Bivins against the Louis of the early/mid 1940's who battered Buddy Baer and Abe Simon at a solid 208 pounds.

                      By the late 1940's, Louis was a bit rusty due to his layoff and showed signs of slipping.

                      Baksi had an all-time great chin and was only stopped on cuts against Ezzard Charles, the only time he was ever stopped in his career. Based on what I've read, he wasn't even floored more than maybe one, two or three times.

                      I'd say though that Louis was still in fairly good shape in 1947 when the fight was supposed to happen. Walcott made him look foolish but he made a lot of people look foolish, including Baksi himself. Whenever Louis could get set, he threw sharp punches with both hands. By the time he fought Rocky he could only flick out a jab.

                      Louis's best option is to attempt to repeat Charles's feat and cut Baksi. Baksi never went 15 but I don't think he ever had a problem going rounds.

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