The fact that Marciano struggled so much with Walcott really makes me not look too deep into this fanasy match up becuase the outcome is so blatantly obvious that there is really not much to say. Walcott is a great fighter and well all know that, but we also know that Ali had the better tools and ability. Think about, Ali is much faster than Walcott, has the better foot movement, is naturally bigger, buiser, punches at least as hard and has a more diverse arsenal.
You have good boxing knowledge, and you are the only guy that i know that could use that to make valid points in a fantasy match up that everyone knows the answer to. Thats takes talent Thunder Lips.
One more thing:
Walcott is not a great reference point to 66 Ali. The taller lanky young Ali may have weighed more but Walcott was a physically strong clincher/counter puncher with one punch ko power. Both had good foot work and were durable but that is about it. Your also reading too much into a single fight(Marciano's first title fight at that), LaStarza, Matthews, and Charles were more akin to Ali's style and Marciano handled them.
Also, Marciano also had eye trouble in the Walcott fight:
"Hall of Fame promoter Sam Silverman," They blinded him in his own corner. I was sitting ringside, right next to them. I think it was poor work, a mistake by his own handlers, that blinded Rocky. Whatever they used on his head got into his eyes."
If so, the substance was a caustic mix called "dynamite". It would burn the skin, closing a wound during a fight. Afterwards, the damaged skin tissue needed to be removed by a surgeon to prevent a bad scar. Dynamite could cause permanent eye injury if it got in the eyes. From the 7th through the 10th rounds Marciano was virtually blind. Some said medication, the "dynamite" used to seal the head wound he received from an accidental butt or to seal a wound on Walcott, did it. Others said something was put on Walcott's gloves. Whatever it was, for those 4 rounds Marciano was unable to see Walcott and took a terrible beating."
Walcott is not a great reference point to 66 Ali. The taller lanky young Ali may have weighed more but Walcott was a physically strong clincher/counter puncher with one punch ko power. Both had good foot work and were durable but that is about it. Your also reading too much into a single fight(Marciano's first title fight at that), LaStarza, Matthews, and Charles were more akin to Ali's style and Marciano handled them.
Also, Marciano also had eye trouble in the Walcott fight:
"Hall of Fame promoter Sam Silverman," They blinded him in his own corner. I was sitting ringside, right next to them. I think it was poor work, a mistake by his own handlers, that blinded Rocky. Whatever they used on his head got into his eyes."
If so, the substance was a caustic mix called "dynamite". It would burn the skin, closing a wound during a fight. Afterwards, the damaged skin tissue needed to be removed by a surgeon to prevent a bad scar. Dynamite could cause permanent eye injury if it got in the eyes. From the 7th through the 10th rounds Marciano was virtually blind. Some said medication, the "dynamite" used to seal the head wound he received from an accidental butt or to seal a wound on Walcott, did it. Others said something was put on Walcott's gloves. Whatever it was, for those 4 rounds Marciano was unable to see Walcott and took a terrible beating."
Excellent points that people always seem to overlook or ignore. Marciano usually gets little to no credit for the Walcott fight after fighting him on one of Walcott's best nights, plus in the Rock's first title fight, being blinded halfway when he usually starts to pour it on, and coming back anyway to win by Knockout. Marciano also was not his usual self in the early rounds as he had taken a nap before the fight (as usual), but was not woken up on time and overslept.
And thanks for posting the fight Manchine!
Last edited by Brockton Lip; 07-20-2008, 07:48 PM.
Excellent points that people always seem to overlook or ignore. Marciano usually gets little to no credit for the Walcott fight after fighting him on one of Walcott's best nights, plus in the Rock's first title fight, being blinded halfway when he usually starts to pour it on, and coming back anyway to win by Knockout. Marciano also was not his usual self in the early rounds as he had taken a nap before the fight (as usual), but was not woken up on time and overslept.
And thanks for posting the fight Manchine!
This is also true, Marciano is believed to have came into the fight cold.
-"Marciano was one of the coolest, most confident men to ever fight. Like Joe Louis, he would sleep in the dressing room before the fight. In the Walcott match, they had planned on waking him 45 minutes before fight time to warm up. But, he was woken when someone ran to the dressing room and said, "They're starting the fight early. He has to be in the ring in 15 minutes!" With no time to warm up, coming out of a sleep, Marciano was hurried to the ring."
Walcott jumping on him with his best punches didn't help much either, the sneaky left that drops Rocky isn't that different from the one that gave Charles his first knockout loss in over a decade(only the second in a career against big punchers.) Yeah, like Vitali/Lewis I don't understand how people can bash Rocky and Walcott's peformances in this fight; not the prettiest fight but it certainly proved alot for both men.
Ring magazine certianly didn't see it as a case of Rocky struggling to beat up an old man.
-"It wasn't so much old age that beat Jersey Joe. It wasn't a decrepit old man who faced the Brockton Block Buster. Walcott put up one of the best fights of his long career, a most remarkable one. Had he not been up against the ropes when the mighty crash felled him, he might have carried on to win the nod of the three officials. It was a miscalculation of a trick he often had used to good advantage that cost him the fight. With back against the ropes, he shifted his body in an effort to baffle his opponent, and that movement brought him in direct line for the
right that put him away."
This is also true, Marciano is believed to have came into the fight cold.
-"Marciano was one of the coolest, most confident men to ever fight. Like Joe Louis, he would sleep in the dressing room before the fight. In the Walcott match, they had planned on waking him 45 minutes before fight time to warm up. But, he was woken when someone ran to the dressing room and said, "They're starting the fight early. He has to be in the ring in 15 minutes!" With no time to warm up, coming out of a sleep, Marciano was hurried to the ring."
Walcott jumping on him with his best punches didn't help much either, the sneaky left that drops Rocky isn't that different from the one that gave Charles his first knockout loss in over a decade(only the second in a career against big punchers.) Yeah, like Vitali/Lewis I don't understand how people can bash Rocky and Walcott's peformances in this fight; not the prettiest fight but it certainly proved alot for both men.
Ring magazine certianly didn't see it as a case of Rocky struggling to beat up an old man.
-"It wasn't so much old age that beat Jersey Joe. It wasn't a decrepit old man who faced the Brockton Block Buster. Walcott put up one of the best fights of his long career, a most remarkable one. Had he not been up against the ropes when the mighty crash felled him, he might have carried on to win the nod of the three officials. It was a miscalculation of a trick he often had used to good advantage that cost him the fight. With back against the ropes, he shifted his body in an effort to baffle his opponent, and that movement brought him in direct line for the
right that put him away."
Was Walcott a 230 pound heavyweight or a cruiserweight? I could care less if he caught Rocky "The overrated pile of trash" Marciano cold or not. Marciano wasn't a heavyweight,Charles wasn't a heavyweight and Walcott wasnt a heavyweight. Name some 220 plus pound black heavyweights Marciano fought.
Walcott is not a great reference point to 66 Ali. The taller lanky young Ali may have weighed more but Walcott was a physically strong clincher/counter puncher with one punch ko power. Both had good foot work and were durable but that is about it. Your also reading too much into a single fight(Marciano's first title fight at that), LaStarza, Matthews, and Charles were more akin to Ali's style and Marciano handled them.
Walcott was the only one that gave him consistant lateral movement and angles and was the only fighter that has a style that resembles Ali. I have watched La Starza/Mariacno and Matthews/Marciano and neither does anything comparable to Ali. These were good strong fighters, but they fought Rocky's grueling fight and allowed themselves to trade and fight on the inside and that just wasn't Ali's game. Ali gives you the consistant movement, keeps you at the end of his punches and clinches when he needs to, just like Walcott and he showed that he was able to do it against strong guys like Liston ect. Marciano is simply too small of a heavyweight and Ali have shown his strength and ability to against full flegde heavyweight that brings educated pressure and better defense.
I can't see how Marciano would effectively get on the inside and do work when Ali is controlling him from the outside and keeping him completely nullified with his accurate left jab and foot movement. He was nullified against Walcott and i can't see what Waclott has over Ali in any department to be honest. My point is, what would he do against a guy that is bigger than Walcott, a better outboxer, bigger, as hard of a puncher, a lot faster, more durable and has a far better chin and foot speed? I can't see it happening anyway i look at it.
Walcott was the only one that gave him consistant lateral movement and angles and was the only fighter that has a style that resembles Ali. I have watched La Starza/Mariacno and Matthews/Marciano and neither does anything comparable to Ali. These were good strong fighters, but they fought Rocky's grueling fight and allowed themselves to trade and fight on the inside and that just wasn't Ali's game. Ali gives you the consistant movement, keeps you at the end of his punches and clinches when he needs to, just like Walcott and he showed that he was able to do it against strong guys like Liston ect. Marciano is simply too small of a heavyweight and Ali have shown his strength and ability to against full flegde heavyweight that brings educated pressure and better defense.
I can't see how Marciano would effectively get on the inside and do work when Ali is controlling him from the outside and keeping him completely nullified with his accurate left jab and foot movement. He was nullified against Walcott and i can't see what Waclott has over Ali in any department to be honest. My point is, what would he do against a guy that is bigger than Walcott, a better outboxer, bigger, as hard of a puncher, a lot faster, more durable and has a far better chin and foot speed? I can't see it happening anyway i look at it.
Intertesting thing though is LaStarza was known as a slick fighter and rinside observers thought he beat Marciano in their first fight. Similarly some observers thought Ezzard Charles won the first fight with Marciano; and of course Walcott was beating him handily up until the 13th round. Truth be told, put him in with Ali and Ali would have opened up the bloodgates enroute to an early stoppage on cuts. Rocky was a bleeder and Ali was the best ever at opening up cuts.
[QUOTE=slicksouthpaw16;3806337]Walcott was the only one that gave him consistant lateral movement and angles and was the only fighter that has a style that resembles Ali. I have watched La Starza/Mariacno and Matthews/Marciano and neither does anything comparable to Ali. These were good strong fighters, but they fought Rocky's grueling fight and allowed themselves to trade and fight on the inside and that just wasn't Ali's game.
[QUOTE]
Sorry, your waaaaaaay off here. LaStarza and Matthews both boxed Rocky from a distance on their toes, clinched on the inside, and avoided exchanges.
LaStarza would later comment how hard Rocky was to find in the rematch and Ali would make a similar comment about how tough his stance was to figure out when they were sparring for their fantasty fight video.
I've done addresssed the weight issue. If the 185 lb Cooper could muscle Ali in the grapple and put him down it isn't a big stretch for Rocky to do the same; you bring up Liston though he didn't really push the issue like Cooper, Chuvalo, or later Frazier did on the inside. Chuvalo and Cooper weren't nearly as strong as Marciano in terms of physical power, workrrate, offense skills, or punching ability; Fraizer and Marciano's knockout victims are also roughly of the same size and quality outside of the big Mathis so your not looking at a huge stepdown. The weight argument holds no water here.
And Ali's power is underrated but he was not as physically strong as Walcott or as hard a puncher; unless you count the phantom punch. Your also not considering all the above in regards to Rocky's performance in the Walcott fight or how he handled slicker fighters like Charles and LaStarza; they just weren't as physically strong as Walcott or as dangerous punchers.
Excellent points that people always seem to overlook or ignore. Marciano usually gets little to no credit for the Walcott fight after fighting him on one of Walcott's best nights, plus in the Rock's first title fight, being blinded halfway when he usually starts to pour it on, and coming back anyway to win by Knockout. Marciano also was not his usual self in the early rounds as he had taken a nap before the fight (as usual), but was not woken up on time and overslept.
And thanks for posting the fight Manchine!
A whole load of bull**** excuses. I am glad he posted it too. It shows him being put on his arse by a slow old man that would not even make the heavyweight top 20. Imagine what a genuine prime heavyweight would do to him! Decapitation! Only white boys get all wet about 'The Rock', when he isn't even the best gringo out there! Even the **** Klit brother and the people that put him on his arse too ike that South African golfer would KO this overrated big nosed pizza munching bum.
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