Marciano was overrated and not an ATG.

[GJC]

That's pretty much the story. But even questionable victories over Charles and Walcott have to be considered somewhat of an achievement. He was very strong and aggressive which got him the nod even if he wasn't in either of their class as a boxer.

He did impressively KO Lee Savold in two rounds but apart from that his only other notable victory was over Turkey Thompson in the early 1940's which Thompson quickly avenged with a first round knockout.

Mind Duane Bobick knocked out Mike Weaver.........

Elmer Ray certainly didn't duck the punch with which Louis knocked him cold during an exhibition.

And that is the final word on Mr Ray

[JAB5239]

Rocky Marciano and Joe Louis weren't Sonny Liston,neither men would have destroyed Cleveland Williams TWICE the way Sonny Liston did,regardless of what Louis nuthuggers claim,he had nowhere near the power that Liston did.

Stop trying to worm out of what you said. You said Patterson would be to fast for either Marciano or Louis, yet Floyd was ko'd by a fighter much slower than either of them.

You're making guess work by trying to bring Williams into the mix, but if Satterfield could stop him I have no doubt Louis would to, and Marciano, though with a bit more trouble.

The Dynamite tit(a true coward,still lives with his mum) put me on ignore so I couldn't respond in that thread you soppy ****,as Joe frazier apologists like to claim all the time "styles make fights" when defending their hero's pathetic efforts against foreman(truth is,that would have happened anytime frazier fought a puncher)

First off, stop whining about being put on ignore. If you didn't act like such an ass you wouldn't have to worry about that. But alas, a zebra can't change his stripes.

Second, you're doing the guess work thing again by assuming Frazier would be stopped by any puncher. Kind of funny how Joe went to Quarry's ass, yet Quarry took Lyle apart. simply put, Frazier beat better fighters than Lyle, hence he is the greater heavyweight. Live with it.

Doesn't mean Young was a greater fighter than Lyle.

Yeah, yeah, we know. He only beat Lyle twice. Beat Foreman, who ko'd Lyle, and gave Ali fits. Did I mention "The Ring" ranks him higher amongst heavyweights too?

Owned again girly man.

Now go beg for some green in the good karma thread. We all know you can't get any based on your posts or boxing knowledge.

[StarshipTrooper]

Yeah, yeah, we know. He only beat Lyle twice. Beat Foreman, who ko'd Lyle, and gave Ali fits. Did I mention "The Ring" ranks him higher amongst heavyweights too?

Owned again girly man.

Now go beg for some green in the good karma thread. We all know you can't get any based on your posts or boxing knowledge.

Notice he has to try and smear Louis under this name now that his Slimey Limey alt has been banned?

Poet

[Bigmacpoper]

Floyd did challenge himself during the later part of his career. Still, Frazier too fought all of those men yet you accuse him of ducking people.

These man matched up well with Frazier,none of these men were punchers,Patterson was past his prime,while Frazier was at his peak and Patterson isn't rated as highly as Joe Frazier

The opponents Patterson supposedly ducked were actually top ranked, not fringe contenders like Al "Blue" Lewis and "Big" Mac Foster. If you're going to accuse Frazier for not fighting punchers, what about Patterson not giving Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdes, Eddie Machen a shot while he was the champion? All of them were top 5 ranked.

funny you mention the top 5 ranking and then call Mac Foster a fringe contender because he actually was ranked in the top 5.

Frazier and Yank Durham wanting nothing to do with a past his prime Folley let alone Folley at his peak.Yes Patterson should have ought these men when he was at his peak but the fact of the matter is,through the last ten years of his career he did fight the best PAST HIS PRIME.

You have no problem discrediting Patterson's resume yet you will defend any others like Joe Louis and Joe Frazier(who blatantly avoided the greatest punchers of his era)

And my original question was for you to bring up the men Louis avoided. You haven't come up with a single name as of yet.

I never actually accused Louis of ducking anyblody,merely that his opponents were lacking in pulse,you mentioned Ray and bivins,how do these not count as avoiding?

You call out Patterson for avoding Machen and yet Patterson did fight Machen,Louis did the exact same thing.

I do know that there were actually black men heavyweights who fought in that era,who were ranked and only two ever got a shot at Louis


[QUOTE=TheGreatA;6268905]I think Louis's camp thought of Rosenbloom as a bit too much of a spoiler

And a good reason to avoid

Who is to say that they couldn't have? Satterfield knocked a young Cleve out. Liston did not destroy everyone he fought either. Eddie Machen and journeyman Bert Whitehurst were game enough to go the distance.

You just said it yourself,YOUNG Cleve,he was far from being in his prime and Liston smashed a peak Cleveland Williams twice,perhaps we should discredit Louis for knocking out Max Schmeling as Max Diekmann,Larry Gains and Gipsy Daniels had already done so.

Eddie Machen came to survive and that was it,Liston knocked out those when it mattered most and that's all that counts.

I don't know how Liston's fight played out with Bert Whitehurst so I can't comment there

Liston had heavy hands but Louis was the better puncher of the two.

He didn't just have heavy hands,he was a danger with either and could deliver a knockout blow with either hand.

As he said "he would make his opponent respect his left" and then crack them with the right.

Louis had greater hand speed and delievered better combinations but he wasn't a greater puncher than Carles "Sonny" Liston.

Stop trying to worm out of what you said. You said Patterson would be to fast for either Marciano or Louis, yet Floyd was ko'd by a fighter much slower than either of them..

Marciano and Louis didn't have the size,intimidation nor presence to destroy Patterson the way Liston did.Liston wasn't slower than Marciano either.

You're making guess work by trying to bring Williams into the mix, but if Satterfield could stop him I have no doubt Louis would to, and Marciano, though with a bit more trouble.

Rather than Parrot others posts,why don't you actually do some research on what stage in his career Cleveland Williams was stopped by Bob Satterfield.

Here's a hint,it wasn't in his prime.

First off, stop whining about being put on ignore. If you didn't act like such an ass you wouldn't have to worry about that. But alas, a zebra can't change his stripes..

Again the irony in a whiner calling others what he is is,is rather amusing.You asked me why I never responded and I told you,obviously you had to turn that into some sort of One-upmanship but it's pretty easy to take in if somebody wasn't as insecure as yourself.

Second, you're doing the guess work thing again by assuming Frazier would be stopped by any puncher. Kind of funny how Joe went to Quarry's ass, yet Quarry took Lyle apart. simply put, Frazier beat better fighters than Lyle, hence he is the greater heavyweight. Live with it.

Of course frazier goes down as the greater heavyweight,he was the heavyweight champion afterall and had greater managment than Lyle ever did and wasn't put away in prison for his prime years as a grown man either.

Still dosn't change the fact that frazier avoided Lyle and any other puncher who came around in his era save George Foreman(and he tried avoiding him too). Live with it and stop being an insecure fanboy

Yeah, yeah, we know. He only beat Lyle twice. Beat Foreman, who ko'd Lyle, and gave Ali fits. Did I mention "The Ring" ranks him higher amongst heavyweights too?

Owned again girly man.

Now go beg for some green in the good karma thread. We all know you can't get any based on your posts or boxing knowledge.

He gave a fat,shot Ali fits,caught foreman at the right time(and it's debatable that he even won the decision) and if "The Ring" ranks him so highly then obviously it must e true.

The Rings also ranked Thomas Damgaard in their top 3 of welterweights at one point,perhaps you should take that in.

If you want to boldly claim that you have owned me without doing so,go ahead.I am not an insecure little ****** like you who worries about others over an internet forum,I don't go through the day thinking about a certain poster on an internet forum either.

E-credit isn't as important to me as it is to you,Consider you and your pedo friend have had to give me red karma out of spite,if that isn't insecurity then I don't know what is.

but you keep looking for your respect over the internet fella,who knows,one day you may even make a legitimate argument but until then you will simply have to wait and hide behind the likes of TheGreatA to make your arguments for you to all back on.

Notice he has to try and smear Louis under this name now that his Slimey Limey alt has been banned?

Poet

Make your mind up PedoPoet,first I was slimey Limey's Alt and now I am his Alt,I've actually been banned twice you simple minded putz.

[TheGreatA]

These man matched up well with Frazier,none of these men were punchers,Patterson was past his prime,while Frazier was at his peak and Patterson isn't rated as highly as Joe Frazier

I wouldn't say that they matched up well with Frazier.

Bonavena sure didn't, he was a strong puncher with a granite chin who always did well against pressure fighters.

Quarry was a very good counter puncher with a solid chin, a good punch that could expose an opponent and he also had the ability to mix it up in close, perhaps to his detriment against Frazier.

Ellis was a sharp puncher who had emerged as the "other" title holder at the time.

You should know why he is rated higher and it's because he defeated Ali. That along with dominating the top contenders of late 1960's should make him a top 15 heavyweight at worst.

Patterson by the way said he wasn't "ready" to take on Joe Frazier. Would that count as a duck?

funny you mention the top 5 ranking and then call Mac Foster a fringe contender because he actually was ranked in the top 5.

For a very brief period. The men I listed with the exception of Nino Valdes (who was once ranked number 2 challenger for Patterson) were top ranked for the length of Patterson's reign.

Frazier and Yank Durham wanting nothing to do with a past his prime Folley let alone Folley at his peak.Yes Patterson should have ought these men when he was at his peak but the fact of the matter is,through the last ten years of his career he did fight the best PAST HIS PRIME.

You have no problem discrediting Patterson's resume yet you will defend any others like Joe Louis and Joe Frazier(who blatantly avoided the greatest punchers of his era)

The point is that I'm only doing what you've done with Frazier and Louis. Except there are much better arguments for Patterson ducking people during his title reign than Louis and Frazier.

I never actually accused Louis of ducking anyblody,merely that his opponents were lacking in pulse,you mentioned Ray and bivins,how do these not count as avoiding?

Because Bivins dropped off the rankings when Louis came back from the army. I said Elmer Ray may have had a case but it would be a stretch to say that Louis ducked him. These were two men Louis had been knocking over in boxing exhibitions, hardly people he would run away from.

When it comes down to it, Louis gave a shot at Walcott who proved to be a better heavyweight than either Ray or Bivins.

You call out Patterson for avoding Machen and yet Patterson did fight Machen,Louis did the exact same thing.

I called him out for not fighting Machen during his title reign when he blatantly deserved a shot, being number 1 ranked once and always in the top 5. The likes of Brian London, Pete Rademacher and Tom McNeeley got title shots instead and Patterson didn't exactly hand out title shots like candy, he fought maybe once or twice a year.

Patterson did redeem himself as I stated in my earlier post but Machen had faded by then. He was battling with a fragile psyche and had threatened to kill himself earlier. Patterson however proved he was the better all along because he not only beat Machen, he dominated him.

I do know that there were actually black men heavyweights who fought in that era,who were ranked and only two ever got a shot at Louis

Jersey Joe Walcott was the best of the bunch, he truly established himself as the leading contender, not just the leading black contender.

There were others like Eddie Blunt, who was beaten by Joe Louis victim Abe Simon, Lem Franklin who was battered by Bob Pastor and Harry Bobo who was upset by Gus Dorazio.

Louis did fight one of the leading black contenders Roscoe Toles early on in his career, in a bout not listed on his official record. He KO'd Toles in the 6th round.

And a good reason to avoid

Why would you fight an opponent with a reputation for running, slapping, holding and being a dirty fighter who was not a top ranked heavyweight and whom the public did not want to see Louis against?

You just said it yourself,YOUNG Cleve,he was far from being in his prime and Liston smashed a peak Cleveland Williams twice,perhaps we should discredit Louis for knocking out Max Schmeling as Max Diekmann,Larry Gains and Gipsy Daniels had already done so.

But you said as if it's an impossible thought that Louis and Marciano could knock Williams out like Liston did. Cleve didn't have the greatest chin and he fought with a kill or be killed style. I wouldn't say that Liston destroyed him either, in fact it looked like it was Liston who was about to be destroyed in the first round of their first fight until Liston turned the tables.

Eddie Machen came to survive and that was it,Liston knocked out those when it mattered most and that's all that counts.

Machen fought a very good fight and didn't come just to survive. He won his share of rounds, landed his own punches and gave Liston plenty of trouble.

I don't know how Liston's fight played out with Bert Whitehurst so I can't comment there

It's on film.

Liston fights in a very calm manner as he usually does, he only went for the kill when he had his man hurt. He said he patterned his fighting style based on Joe Louis. Whitehurst uses head movement, footwork and clinching to avoid Liston's power punches but is dominated by Liston's jab and hurt badly in a couple of rounds when Liston gets his right hand through.

In the last remaining seconds of the final round of the fight, Liston knocks Whitehurst clean out of the ring but the bell saves him.

He didn't just have heavy hands,he was a danger with either and could deliver a knockout blow with either hand.

I'd say "heavy hands" is the perfect way to describe him. His fists were huge and came down with clubbing effect but his power could be neutralized. Louis knew how to punch from any position.

As he said "he would make his opponent respect his left" and then crack them with the right.

That's exactly what he did, although I think his left hook was his best punch. The right could be a bit ponderous at times but when it landed his opponents would feel it.

Louis had greater hand speed and delievered better combinations but he wasn't a greater puncher than Carles "Sonny" Liston.

You could argue about who had more raw punching power but I don't think it can be argued that Louis wasn't the better puncher.

[Leakbeak]

People need to start admitting and seeing the obvious: some eras are not as good as the others! The 70#s were the sickest and Marciano wouldn't have even beaten the likes of Jerry Quarry and Henry Cooper!

[hardmanbrit]

Not many Heavyweight World Champions have retired unbeaten, but I have to agree that most of the world champions of decades ago would stand no chance against the world champions of today.

My favourite Marciano win has to be his demolition of the great Jersey Joe Walcott.

[billionaire]

People need to start admitting and seeing the obvious: some eras are not as good as the others! The 70#s were the sickest and Marciano wouldn't have even beaten the likes of Jerry Quarry and Henry Cooper!

marciano wouldve blujoned cooper to death.......

[Schmerzen]

Like come on a guy like tony galento wouldn't even make it past the health check nowadays.

this made me laugh

[JFB629]

My critera of judging a fighters greatness is not how he would fair in another era or how he would fair in fantasy fights. I judge greatness on what he accomplished in his own era and in his own time of fighting.

In my opinion thats how greatness should be judged. And in my opinion Rocky Marciano was a great.

Few to none Heavyweights have put so much commitment behind every punch. Marciano could break resistance and bones by punching opponents arms and could finish a fight at any stage with a single hook or cross.

Marciano punched like a muel with both hands. At times he threw it like he was back on the baseball field, swinging it right over the top with all he had. Other times it would be sneaky short and crisp.

He was extra ordinarily strong for his size. And was always in incredible condition a true dedicated sportsman. He had tremendous courage, stamina, will to win and heart.

Over the years, Marciano is soley remembered for being a crude clumsey slugger, with no defence and just a big punch. When he started out this was the case.

But by the time he hung the gloves up. He was pretty skilled at bobbing and weaving his way in, instead of just powering his way foward. And had learnt his craft rather well. Angelo Dundee once said that despite the impression of cruity his head shifting defence was better than it appeared.

He is the only ever undefeated Heavyweight Champion to reitire undefeated. He overcame a late start to the sport, and small size to dominant the Heavyweight division.

He made 6 defences of the Heavyweight Title and held onto it for 3 years and retired champion.

Some critisize him saying that he was in a weak era of Heavyweights. It wasn't the strongest of era's but it certainly wasn't the weakest and it's not as if Marciano had a huge size advantage over them.

Rocky Marciano's Accomplishments
-Only Ever Heavyweight Champion To Retire Undefeated
-Argubaly Hardest Ever Heavyweight Puncher In History
-Defeated 4 IBHOF Members
-The Ring Magazine Fighter of the Year in 1952, 1954, & 1955.


Rocky Marciano Resume Of Wins
-Rex Layne
-Roland LaStarza (37-0)
-Harry Matthews
-Joe Louis
-Lee Savold
-Jersey Joe Walcott x2
-Ezzard Charles x2
-Archie Moore