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Joe Louis: A Retrospective

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Dr. Z View Post
    Geez. You asked for punchers who can box and I gave you some.

    Bowe was more than our puncher. He was skilled on the outside and inside. You must have missed many of his fights. I disagree with you if you say he was not skilled. He was trained by Futch.

    No more on Ortiz, please. He was 40, and who did he beat again?

    Klitschko ( Vladmir ) lost only to power punchers. Of yeah, he was 39 for Fury, but that really doesn't count. That point should stand.

    Now your trying to trumpet Galento? The man was very unskilled ( More so than anything I mentioned ), short, and fat. Yet he floored Louis. Two ton would not be ranked today in the to top 10.

    Sure Lewis avenged his to losses, but he didn't offer any re-matches to his tough fights. Mercer ( some felt he deserved a draw ) , Bruno ( Lewis behind until the KO ) and the older Klitschko ) Lewis also beind until the cuts stoppage. Where was the re-match?

    Yes-- if you followed boxing in the 1990's Sanders name was in there press to fight Lewis or Tyson. It never happened. Sanders didn't have the right promoter. Joe Louis never fought anyone like Sanders. A big southpaw with fast hands who had KO power.

    My opinions are based on film ( when possible ) and facts. I agree with you that Louis was as you say : Yes, he was slow and methodical with his footwork ". He also had a low guard, and if you watch the film, did stick his face forward too often, a real no-no in boxing. I can tell you going to pull on that last statement as he only straw you have. Joe was flied 22 times or so. Watch the films. He did not tuck his chin well, nor did he have a high guard.
    I never commented on Bowe. Yes he was quite skilled. I don't think you understand the distinction I am making... There are degrees of fighters regarding relying on pure punching ability. Lyle, Shavers and Wilder seldom outbox(ed) anyone. Its not a comment on their ability, its a matter of strategy.

    Ortiz was used as an example...Do you understand my comments? I mean you seem to think when i am giving you examples, that I am speaking from a perspective of endorsement. You can have a fighter who has lost every fight, who is a good example of a puncher, or boxer, with respect to how they approach strategy in the ring.

    Klitsko lost to Brewster, Purity, Sanders and who exactly did he beat that is a great fighter? He lost to Fury and Joshua later, but at an age where heavyweights still can rule the roost.

    Galento I did say was skilled. I stand by it. He was very strong, relentless, very hittable for sure, but capable in the ring. We can agree to disagree.

    Rematches? lol again degraded argument... Avenging a loss is not the same as granting a rematch. I happen to like Sanders... (RIP), but he was not considered a consistent threat and lost to many fighters like Rahman. You cannot deny he plastered Vlad and Vlad never wanted any of that again... Against a fighter like Louis? We will never know... But fighters like Louis were technically taught to deal with southpaws. Loved Sanders... but he had a lot of flaws to exploit and Louis would have entree to those flaws.

    There is NOTHING wrong with a low guard. As a matter of fact, given that Dempsey changed the methods of punching, only a bit back from the Louis era, many fighters still did, as preclassical fighters did... and hold the guard low. This was accompanied by a false center line (putting the head over a back shoulder off line, yet looking to opponent like head is in line), footwork emphasizing distance of 3 feet or more (sword length), and footwork. It is not a foible to carry guard low.

    I have heard people talk for years about Louis... I have watched film of Louis and never heard that he had anything but perfect balance, and have never heard he stuck his chin out... Louis is held out as a model of balance and efficiency. So excuse me if I am skeptical of that "last straw." I will look at some footage again, DO YOU HAVE SOME FOOTAGE TO SUGGEST I LOOK AT?

    Ill make you a deal: I am open minded. I have in the past been wrong on issues and have no problem admitting such. Can you give me a link to footage where Louis is sticking his head out? It I feel you have a point I will say so, If I do not, I will say so... If we disagree again, lets put the footage up on a thread and ask others to look and comment. is that fair? I am here to learn, and am always ready to do so.
    Last edited by billeau2; 01-21-2021, 03:02 PM.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by billeau2 View Post
      I never commented on Bowe. Yes he was quite skilled. I don't think you understand the distinction I am making... There are degrees of fighters regarding relying on pure punching ability. Lyle, Shavers and Wilder seldom outbox(ed) anyone. Its not a comment on their ability, its a matter of strategy.

      Ortiz was used as an example...Do you understand my comments? I mean you seem to think when i am giving you examples, that I am speaking from a perspective of endorsement. You can have a fighter who has lost every fight, who is a good example of a puncher, or boxer, with respect to how they approach strategy in the ring.

      Klitsko lost to Brewster, Purity, Sanders and who exactly did he beat that is a great fighter? He lost to Fury and Joshua later, but at an age where heavyweights still can rule the roost.

      Galento I did say was skilled. I stand by it. He was very strong, relentless, very hittable for sure, but capable in the ring. We can agree to disagree.

      Rematches? lol again degraded argument... Avenging a loss is not the same as granting a rematch. I happen to like Sanders... (RIP), but he was not considered a consistent threat and lost to many fighters like Rahman. You cannot deny he plastered Vlad and Vlad never wanted any of that again... Against a fighter like Louis? We will never know... But fighters like Louis were technically taught to deal with southpaws. Loved Sanders... but he had a lot of flaws to exploit and Louis would have entree to those flaws.

      There is NOTHING wrong with a low guard. As a matter of fact, given that Dempsey changed the methods of punching, only a bit back from the Louis era, many fighters still did, as preclassical fighters did... and hold the guard low. This was accompanied by a false center line (putting the head over a back shoulder off line, yet looking to opponent like head is in line), footwork emphasizing distance of 3 feet or more (sword length), and footwork. It is not a foible to carry guard low.

      I have heard people talk for years about Louis... I have watched film of Louis and never heard that he had anything but perfect balance, and have never heard he stuck his chin out... Louis is held out as a model of balance and efficiency. So excuse me if I am skeptical of that "last straw." I will look at some footage again, DO YOU HAVE SOME FOOTAGE TO SUGGEST I LOOK AT?

      Ill make you a deal: I am open minded. I have in the past been wrong on issues and have no problem admitting such. Can you give me a link to footage where Louis is sticking his head out? It I feel you have a point I will say so, If I do not, I will say so... If we disagree again, lets put the footage up on a thread and ask others to look and comment. is that fair? I am here to learn, and am always ready to do so.

      Yes. You have been before and recently. Among the things I think you have wrong are:

      Galento was skilled? Are you for real here? Don't inflate him because he floored Louis, please. He's a journeyman type who Bowe would have beaten very early. Just another bum of the month type.

      Bowe was a skilled puncher. Agreed?

      Lewis was also a skilled puncher. Agreed.

      Who cares about Ortiz, he was old and had beaten noone.

      As for a low guard, its not recommended. You can get away with it if you have feet like Ali, or a massive reach advantage, which Louis did not.

      Wlad, who I can tell you don't respect, offered re-matches. At least to two different fighters. See the Brewster beat down, and a re-match with an early DQ win.

      And by the way had Brewster hit Louis he's in trouble, and unlike those who out boxed him in Walcott and Conn Brewster had a heck of a chin. Sanders was too old for a re-match and was beaten by Vitali which killed demand. He also lost via Ko'd in 1 near 40, another reason why there wasn't a re-match. Wlad fought nearly everyone he should have, had no color line, and fought many big men, boxers and punchers. All types, including southpaws.

      Louis? Just 2 of his 26 title defenses were vs Black men, and #1 Ring Magazine ranked guys like Jimmy Bivins and Elmer Ray were not given title match.

      Wlad did lose to Fury at age 39 and nearly beat Joshua at age 41 If you think these are prime years or other champions can easy be found at this age, you're out there. Given his age, and good performance, the best conclusion here is if he was in his prime as they were, he beats them both.

      I'm glad to hear you have footage. Watch the first Schmeling fight. Look at Louis low guard and stance. He was easy to hit and that Right that floored him if you watch the rest of the fight was something Louis could not recover from. Watch one of the later rounds too, when Louis throws and lands a mean low blow, which IMO he needed to. It's never talked about.

      Watch the first fight with Godoy, that one was very close, Godoy the better with the surviving footage. You will see a slow footed, mechanical Joe Louis here. Please explain why this master boxer struggles so.

      Or watch Louis vs Wlacott 1, he did NOT win that one, and looked horrible in the second fight. Walcott also says he was easy to hit.

      Watch how a scared 169 pound Conn figured out Louis was too slow and was up on points until he caught late in round 13, after being stunned by Conn. 12 rounds here and we have a new champion. Louis had about 30 pounds, height, weight and reach on Conn, yet this " master boxer " was behind. Please explain why.

      Tommy Farr gave Louis a fight? Where's the re-match?

      And as I correctly stated Louis lost the majority of his rounds to Schmeling, Conn, Walcott, and Charles, pretty much the best he fought. You can score them on film, for me.

      And since your grilling on Wlad for some reason, how did Louis do vs Charles? Not nearly as good as Wlad vs Fury . He's lucky if he won two rounds and face was a mess vs Charles. Of course vs Marciano, years younger that Wlad was vs Joshua, he did far worse. Wlad almost beat Joshua at age 41 out of the ring for 1.5 years.
      Last edited by Dr. Z; 01-24-2021, 03:04 PM.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Dr. Z View Post
        Yes. You have been before and recently. Among the things I think you have wrong are:

        Galento was skilled? Are you for real here? Don't inflate him because he floored Louis, please. He's a journeyman type who Bowe would have beaten very early. Just another bum of the month type.

        Bowe was a skilled puncher. Agreed?

        Lewis was also a skilled puncher. Agreed.

        Who cares about Ortiz, he was old and had beaten noone.

        As for a low guard, its not recommended. You can get away with it if you have feet like Ali, or a massive reach advantage, which Louis did not.

        Wlad, who I can tell you don't respect, offered re-matches. At least to two different fighters. See the Brewster beat down, and a re-match with an early DQ win.

        And by the way had Brewster hit Louis he's in trouble, and unlike those who out boxed him in Walcott and Conn Brewster had a heck of a chin. Sanders was too old for a re-match and was beaten by Vitali which killed demand. He also lost via Ko'd in 1 near 40, another reason why there wasn't a re-match. Wlad fought nearly everyone he should have, had no color line, and fought many big men, boxers and punchers. All types, including southpaws.

        Louis? Just 2 of his 26 title defenses were vs Black men, and #1 Ring Magazine ranked guys like Jimmy Bivins and Elmer Ray were not given title match.

        Wlad did lose to Fury at age 39 and nearly beat Joshua at age 41 If you think these are prime years or other champions can easy be found at this age, you're out there. Given his age, and good performance, the best conclusion here is if he was in his prime as they were, he beats them both.

        I'm glad to hear you have footage. Watch the first Schmeling fight. Look at Louis low guard and stance. He was easy to hit and that Right that floored him if you watch the rest of the fight was something Louis could not recover from. Watch one of the later rounds too, when Louis throws and lands a mean low blow, which IMO he needed to. It's never talked about.

        Watch the first fight with Godoy, that one was very close, Godoy the better with the surviving footage. You will see a slow footed, mechanical Joe Louis here. Please explain why this master boxer struggles so.

        Or watch Louis vs Wlacott 1, he did NOT win that one, and looked horrible in the second fight. Walcott also says he was easy to hit.

        Watch how a scared 169 pound Conn figured out Louis was too slow and was up on points until he caught late in round 13, after being stunned by Conn. 12 rounds here and we have a new champion. Louis had about 30 pounds, height, weight and reach on Conn, yet this " master boxer " was behind. Please explain why.

        Tommy Farr gave Louis a fight? Where's the re-match?

        And as I correctly stated Louis lost the majority of his rounds to Schmeling, Conn, Walcott, and Charles, pretty much the best he fought. You can score them on film, for me.

        And since your grilling on Wlad for some reason, how did Louis do vs Charles? Not nearly as good as Wlad vs Fury . He's lucky if he won two rounds and face was a mess vs Charles. Of course vs Marciano, years younger that Wlad was vs Joshua, he did far worse. Wlad almost beat Joshua at age 41 out of the ring for 1.5 years.
        Look: Show me Louis as you see his foibles in film, its a simple request. Maybe your on to something. I will work with the first film you mention after Schmelling.

        yes Galento was skilled, there are fighters who strive to be underestimated... El matador, smoking cigs, Galento and his wittiscisms, dude was rock solid under his gut... Again we can agree to disagree. Bum of the month club indeed, almost as much as Vlad's bum of the month club... and Louis at least won against all his "bums"!

        Bowe has talent, I wouldn't say his talent was squarely on punching... He could do many things in the ring, fight inside, punch, move well for a big man. Ditto for Lewis, actually Bowe could do more things than Lewis, truth be told, but Lewis made the most of what he could do.

        We can agree to disagree about Ortiz. Cuban fighters are like kiss up students! they always come to class/the ring prepared with good skills. Ortiz was no exception.

        You just made a whole lot of excuses for Vlad... Not buying any of them. We can make excuses for any fighters problems! For example"Well Schmelling took advantage of an error Louis had internalized that had become a habit." Louis fixed it and showed what would have happened that second fight!" Now doesn't that sound silly?

        I will look at the film you mention. The Schmelling fight was a bad outing and Louis learned a lesson, he was all out of sorts during that fight.

        You going back to making excuses for Louis' wins... Walcot was a hell of a fighter...

        You seem a real Vlad fanboy intent on taking any small detail and making it into a reason why Vlad is exceptional and vice versa for Louis. Not buying it my friend. On film? Vlad flinches, nuff said about greatness and film.
        Last edited by billeau2; 01-24-2021, 04:31 PM.

        Comment


        • #49
          film

          Originally posted by Dr. Z View Post
          Yes. You have been before and recently. Among the things I think you have wrong are:

          Galento was skilled? Are you for real here? Don't inflate him because he floored Louis, please. He's a journeyman type who Bowe would have beaten very early. Just another bum of the month type.

          Bowe was a skilled puncher. Agreed?

          Lewis was also a skilled puncher. Agreed.

          Who cares about Ortiz, he was old and had beaten noone.

          As for a low guard, its not recommended. You can get away with it if you have feet like Ali, or a massive reach advantage, which Louis did not.

          Wlad, who I can tell you don't respect, offered re-matches. At least to two different fighters. See the Brewster beat down, and a re-match with an early DQ win.

          And by the way had Brewster hit Louis he's in trouble, and unlike those who out boxed him in Walcott and Conn Brewster had a heck of a chin. Sanders was too old for a re-match and was beaten by Vitali which killed demand. He also lost via Ko'd in 1 near 40, another reason why there wasn't a re-match. Wlad fought nearly everyone he should have, had no color line, and fought many big men, boxers and punchers. All types, including southpaws.

          Louis? Just 2 of his 26 title defenses were vs Black men, and #1 Ring Magazine ranked guys like Jimmy Bivins and Elmer Ray were not given title match.

          Wlad did lose to Fury at age 39 and nearly beat Joshua at age 41 If you think these are prime years or other champions can easy be found at this age, you're out there. Given his age, and good performance, the best conclusion here is if he was in his prime as they were, he beats them both.

          I'm glad to hear you have footage. Watch the first Schmeling fight. Look at Louis low guard and stance. He was easy to hit and that Right that floored him if you watch the rest of the fight was something Louis could not recover from. Watch one of the later rounds too, when Louis throws and lands a mean low blow, which IMO he needed to. It's never talked about.

          Watch the first fight with Godoy, that one was very close, Godoy the better with the surviving footage. You will see a slow footed, mechanical Joe Louis here. Please explain why this master boxer struggles so.

          Or watch Louis vs Wlacott 1, he did NOT win that one, and looked horrible in the second fight. Walcott also says he was easy to hit.

          Watch how a scared 169 pound Conn figured out Louis was too slow and was up on points until he caught late in round 13, after being stunned by Conn. 12 rounds here and we have a new champion. Louis had about 30 pounds, height, weight and reach on Conn, yet this " master boxer " was behind. Please explain why.

          Tommy Farr gave Louis a fight? Where's the re-match?

          And as I correctly stated Louis lost the majority of his rounds to Schmeling, Conn, Walcott, and Charles, pretty much the best he fought. You can score them on film, for me.

          And since your grilling on Wlad for some reason, how did Louis do vs Charles? Not nearly as good as Wlad vs Fury . He's lucky if he won two rounds and face was a mess vs Charles. Of course vs Marciano, years younger that Wlad was vs Joshua, he did far worse. Wlad almost beat Joshua at age 41 out of the ring for 1.5 years.

          I just looked at tape. I want to open a thread. My interest is to be constructive here, but frankly, you have to know what you are looking at. Just looking at tape and seeing something that catches your eye is not enough...

          Let me respond to you first:

          What you are seeing Lewis and Godoy also employing is what is called a false front.

          [Content is Protected, Please Register For Free To Unlock This Content]


          This video gives some inight into the use of this position. Because one is slightly at an angle, film makes it look (when the back is bent) like the head is either in front, or behind. Godoy also employs the same position. It is an example of how skilled guys were in the craft of boxing back then.

          Comment


          • #50
            - -Vitali used a low guard to much success.

            The Ks and Louis had superior footwork to most heavies. They weren't runners/stinkers.

            As to footwork, AJ and Jeffries beat every heavy in history thru 100 meters. Fury would be among the slowest, yet in short distances of the ring he manages quite well, thank you.

            Ali vs Louis 100 meters, who U rubes got?

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by QueensburyRules View Post
              - -Vitali used a low guard to much success.

              The Ks and Louis had superior footwork to most heavies. They weren't runners/stinkers.

              As to footwork, AJ and Jeffries beat every heavy in history thru 100 meters. Fury would be among the slowest, yet in short distances of the ring he manages quite well, thank you.

              Ali vs Louis 100 meters, who U rubes got?
              A low guard is a preference, not a foible, as you indicate. I see where you are going on the speed versus work... Its a good point.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by QueensburyRules View Post
                - -Vitali used a low guard to much success.

                The Ks and Louis had superior footwork to most heavies. They weren't runners/stinkers.

                As to footwork, AJ and Jeffries beat every heavy in history thru 100 meters. Fury would be among the slowest, yet in short distances of the ring he manages quite well, thank you.

                Ali vs Louis 100 meters, who U rubes got?
                Yes, he does and when you are 6'7" 1/2 with good punch anticipation, combined with his footwork, you can get away with it.

                Vitali was never floored in his professional career. One of the very few. And he was seldom hit by the second punch.
                Last edited by Dr. Z; 01-25-2021, 03:32 PM.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by billeau2 View Post
                  I just looked at tape. I want to open a thread. My interest is to be constructive here, but frankly, you have to know what you are looking at. Just looking at tape and seeing something that catches your eye is not enough...

                  Let me respond to you first:

                  What you are seeing Lewis and Godoy also employing is what is called a false front.

                  [Content is Protected, Please Register For Free To Unlock This Content]


                  This video gives some inight into the use of this position. Because one is slightly at an angle, film makes it look (when the back is bent) like the head is either in front, or behind. Godoy also employs the same position. It is an example of how skilled guys were in the craft of boxing back then.
                  How can you not look at the film objective and see that Louis did not have a good defense?

                  That guy you posted has a short torso and big arms, so the defense and least for his "training film" can work for him.

                  Note you pick a different body type, not in a filmed fight to make you point.

                  He's nothing like Louis. Our should I say Louis is nothing like him? His arms are short and big, and his torso short, making it easy too cover up.

                  I think I do know what Im looking at. Thank you. Take note, the boxing coach who fighting nobody has a high right hand. Joe Louis was often had a low guard with one hand and and you should know that by watching the films.

                  Which films do you want to go over?

                  How about Godoy 1, Schmeling 1, and Walcott 1. If you want to add Conn 1 go for it. I'll spare you Glaento as you think he's very skilled and I see a guy who short & fat, not to advanced beyond tough man.
                  Last edited by Dr. Z; 01-25-2021, 03:32 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    No doubt Joe Louis was great. Should have fought Lem Franklin though.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Dr. Z View Post
                      How can you not look at the film objective and see that Louis did not have a good defense?

                      That guy you posted has a short torso and big arms, so the defense and least for his "training film" can work for him.

                      Note you pick a different body type, not in a filmed fight to make you point.

                      He's nothing like Louis. Our should I say Louis is nothing like him? His arms are short and big, and his torso short, making it easy too cover up.

                      I think I do know what Im looking at. Thank you. Take note, the boxing coach who fighting nobody has a high right hand. Joe Louis was often had a low guard with one hand and and you should know that by watching the films.

                      Which films do you want to go over?

                      How about Godoy 1, Schmeling 1, and Walcott 1. If you want to add Conn 1 go for it. I'll spare you Glaento as you think he's very skilled and I see a guy who short & fat, not to advanced beyond tough man.
                      Areyouforreal? It has nothing to do with the build of the guy!

                      I looked at Godoy1. It has nothing to do with a right hand... Its a convention, one you were unaware of. And now you critique the guy explaining? Look, you don't make sense to me. I am sure you are sensible but I can't get how you are looking at things when you tell me about the guy explaining... Its like you asking me to review a movie and I tell you about the usher.

                      I gave you a vid explaing a false centerline... I explained how using this makes the head look out of sorts... You come back telling me about the build of the guy making the video and talk about a low guard and right hand.

                      Explain to me how Godoy1 shows Louis sticking his head out... They fought in a phone booth for much of that fight.
                      Last edited by billeau2; 01-25-2021, 06:18 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Dynamite76 View Post
                        No doubt Joe Louis was great. Should have fought Lem Franklin though.
                        Yep him too.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Dr. Z View Post
                          Yes, he does and when you are 6'7" 1/2 with good punch anticipation, combined with his footwork, you can get away with it.

                          Vitali was never floored in his professional career. One of the very few. And he was seldom hit by the second punch.
                          Seldom fought anyone who presented a real challenge... With that said, I believe he was better than his brother, and could have been a much better fighter had he challenged himself.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Dynamite76 View Post
                            No doubt Joe Louis was great. Should have fought Lem Franklin though.
                            - -Lem, R.I.P. had notched 7 KO losses before his 8th where he met his unfortunate demise, age 28.

                            Had Joe fought him, the typical BS ninny gonna be blubbering about something else

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by QueensburyRules View Post
                              - -Lem, R.I.P. had notched 7 KO losses before his 8th where he met his unfortunate demise, age 28.

                              Had Joe fought him, the typical BS ninny gonna be blubbering about something else
                              Maybe, but if Lem had caught him, we might have a different timeline for heavyweight history.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Dynamite76 View Post
                                Maybe, but if Lem had caught him, we might have a different timeline for heavyweight history.
                                - -Had I been gifted the Ali Holmsey fought, I'd have been the lineal hvy champ like Leon and U boys be bowing and scraping as is U natures.

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