best defensive boxer of all time

[Fox McCloud]

oh god. Now he's a historian. lol lol

lol lol thanks for the great addition to the discussion lol lol

Don't you have someone else that hurt your feelings on here that you could be following around?

[MikeBrew328]

1. Willie pep.....here's why
Willie Pep won about 225 professional fights, losing only 11. The fact that he fought until 44 while remaining such a defensive fighter so consistently outdoes anybody IMO. And he never got brain damage! Muhammad Ali had great defense, but took way too many shots, like against Foreman and Frazier. Robinson is certainly up there, but also wasn't as pure a boxer as Pep. Floyd is an alltime P4p defensive fighter too.

[BennyST]

Locche is definitely up there... He made Kid Pambele look like a stiff at times. Of all time, though? I'd pick Radar Benitez. So good at defense that it sometimes cost him fights... lol.

On the best of the 90's subject... I'd probably pick Herol Graham over James Toney.

Yes, he was truly incredible! One of my favourites. Not only with that amazing performance over Antonio 'Kid Pembele' Cervantes but also over HOF greats Joe Brown, Ismael Laguna and Carlos Ortiz! Thats a hell of a resume! The only problem is when he came back from his first title loss just before retiring and was beaten via TKO by Cervantes. He was done by this stage though so...

lol at Benitez! Man, he was such a good fighter at times. His performance against Duran was by far his greatest with Duran on the slide after his loss to Leonard and especially that they both despised each other. Duran did look pretty awful though in it. He was gassed by the tenth round! T'was sad seeing him like that especially when you consider that he used to go fifteen rounds at full crazy pace like a motherf^&*&r! He is definitely up there with the greatest as well speaking of him.

Yeah, I can't decide on the Graham vs Toney. Toney fought better fighters even though he got a few draws, they were against stellar opposition and it was when he was quite inactive during fights due to his lack of energy from weight drain at Middle. Whereas Graham also fought great fighters he was knocked horribly cold in one of the worst KO's I've ever seen! But then again, if Jackson cracked anyone they were gone for the count! He was also giving Jackson such a schooling at the time, it was sad. I really wish he had won that fight because he was never given his dues after it.

Dwiens, as far as I know Floyd and Toney did a fair bit of sparring together when he was young and thats why I said he got a lot from him but yes, he also picked up that from his dad. Just developed it further in sparring with him. Unfortunately his dad never used it that well in his fights! lol

That was a fantastic clip of Whittaker Sweet Pete (did you make that?). God he was a freak!

[TheGreatA]

Two of the best defensive fighters I've ever seen.

[Sweet Pete]

As highlight videos often do... that made me say, "how the **** did that guy ever lose a fight?"

Jesus, I also remember seeing that one part where he made De La Hoya miss about 10 straight times at the end of the round, and then he played like he was stunned when the round was over.

Good ****!

Well, he didn't truly lose a fight until he was old and past his prime, and coked out against Trinidad.

His loss to Ramirez was in fact a near shutout victory for Pernell, one of the worst robberies in the history of the sport, only to be matched by his draw against Chavez, which anyone will tell you was at least an 8-4 victory for Pernell. The fight with De La Hoya was close, but Pea threw more, landed more, landed at a higher percentage, dropped DLH, and made him miss so bad he looked foolish at times. I had Pea by two points.

Only when a 35 year old shot, coke head version of Pea faced a prime, much bigger Tito Trinidad did he truly lose, and was even able to give a good fight in that one, opting to trade and fight rather than box, as he had lost most of his ability by then.

[RightHandLead]

Yes, he was truly incredible! One of my favourites. Not only with that amazing performance over Antonio 'Kid Pembele' Cervantes but also over HOF greats Joe Brown, Ismael Laguna and Carlos Ortiz! Thats a hell of a resume! The only problem is when he came back from his first title loss just before retiring and was beaten via TKO by Cervantes. He was done by this stage though so...

lol at Benitez! Man, he was such a good fighter at times. His performance against Duran was by far his greatest with Duran on the slide after his loss to Leonard and especially that they both despised each other. Duran did look pretty awful though in it. He was gassed by the tenth round! T'was sad seeing him like that especially when you consider that he used to go fifteen rounds at full crazy pace like a motherf^&*&r! He is definitely up there with the greatest as well speaking of him.

Yeah, I can't decide on the Graham vs Toney. Toney fought better fighters even though he got a few draws, they were against stellar opposition and it was when he was quite inactive during fights due to his lack of energy from weight drain at Middle. Whereas Graham also fought great fighters he was knocked horribly cold in one of the worst KO's I've ever seen! But then again, if Jackson cracked anyone they were gone for the count! He was also giving Jackson such a schooling at the time, it was sad. I really wish he had won that fight because he was never given his dues after it.

Dwiens, as far as I know Floyd and Toney did a fair bit of sparring together when he was young and thats why I said he got a lot from him but yes, he also picked up that from his dad. Just developed it further in sparring with him. Unfortunately his dad never used it that well in his fights! lol

That was a fantastic clip of Whittaker Sweet Pete (did you make that?). God he was a freak!

Benitez is the greatest defensive fighter, IMO. I see a video up there of Pernell ducking shots and making guys look foolish.. Benitez was doing that and (dare I say it?) a little better. He gave Leonard fits. He spanked Duran.. and what made it more incredible was that he stood right in front of you. Not the Toney-esque, hands-up approach. But arms low, shoulders down. And you still could rarely catch him clean.

I agree with you about Duran. He was very subtle with his defense. It didn't really catch your eye because he was always coming forward- but it was definitely there.

Herol Graham had the better knack for defense than did Toney.. he also was unfocused and could rely heavily on his great reflexes. And yes- it cost him against Jackson. Toney is a more complete fighter, but if you want to look solely at defense, Bomber Graham is the better man.

[Sweet Pete]

Yes, he was truly incredible! One of my favourites. Not only with that amazing performance over Antonio 'Kid Pembele' Cervantes but also over HOF greats Joe Brown, Ismael Laguna and Carlos Ortiz! Thats a hell of a resume! The only problem is when he came back from his first title loss just before retiring and was beaten via TKO by Cervantes. He was done by this stage though so...

lol at Benitez! Man, he was such a good fighter at times. His performance against Duran was by far his greatest with Duran on the slide after his loss to Leonard and especially that they both despised each other. Duran did look pretty awful though in it. He was gassed by the tenth round! T'was sad seeing him like that especially when you consider that he used to go fifteen rounds at full crazy pace like a motherf^&*&r! He is definitely up there with the greatest as well speaking of him.

Yeah, I can't decide on the Graham vs Toney. Toney fought better fighters even though he got a few draws, they were against stellar opposition and it was when he was quite inactive during fights due to his lack of energy from weight drain at Middle. Whereas Graham also fought great fighters he was knocked horribly cold in one of the worst KO's I've ever seen! But then again, if Jackson cracked anyone they were gone for the count! He was also giving Jackson such a schooling at the time, it was sad. I really wish he had won that fight because he was never given his dues after it.

Dwiens, as far as I know Floyd and Toney did a fair bit of sparring together when he was young and thats why I said he got a lot from him but yes, he also picked up that from his dad. Just developed it further in sparring with him. Unfortunately his dad never used it that well in his fights! lol

That was a fantastic clip of Whittaker Sweet Pete (did you make that?). God he was a freak!

I can't take credit for that HL, no, but it's my fave on the net.

Of the guys mentioned, in terms of defense, it is very subjective as to who is the best, because all the guys we are mentioning were known for their slipperiness and ability to avoid shots,so it just depends on who you like. I like Whitaker for his all around game to compliment his defense.

[Panamaniac]

The best defense and counter-punching I've ever observed from an offense-oriented fighter was that of one Roberto Durán.

Any rebuttals?

[czars_salad]

Two of the best defensive fighters I've ever seen.

great fight!

[BennyST]

Benitez is the greatest defensive fighter, IMO. I see a video up there of Pernell ducking shots and making guys look foolish.. Benitez was doing that and (dare I say it?) a little better. He gave Leonard fits. He spanked Duran.. and what made it more incredible was that he stood right in front of you. Not the Toney-esque, hands-up approach. But arms low, shoulders down. And you still could rarely catch him clean.

I agree with you about Duran. He was very subtle with his defense. It didn't really catch your eye because he was always coming forward- but it was definitely there.

Herol Graham had the better knack for defense than did Toney.. he also was unfocused and could rely heavily on his great reflexes. And yes- it cost him against Jackson. Toney is a more complete fighter, but if you want to look solely at defense, Bomber Graham is the better man.

I'm not going to disagree. He was one hell of a fighter. You know what really amazes me about him though is that he had one of the most complete games at the youngest age of any fighter ever I think. Most fighters slowly pick up their defensive game as they move on and really peak around their late twenties in terms of defense. Basically, it comes with really having fought a lot and having been in so many times they learn to understand what' coming next and they deal with it better seemingly at a slightly older age. He was just born with it and was peaking in his mid-late teens!!! That is just insane. He certainly wasn't fighting any chumps either so you really knew his game was the real deal.

I think Benitez was quite different from Whittaker. He seemed to have a stronger technical foundation whereas Whittaker was maybe a bit more instinctive. Also relied much more on counter punching as his main game than did Sweet Pea.

As for 'Lights Out' yes, he didn't really have the same 'philly shell' type of defense that Toney had and relied on. Toney was much more into using his shoulder up for everything and turning more side on to bend away and let the punches ride over and counter that way. Very stand in defense...like Mayweather kind of but more of a 'fighter'. Benitez was much more of a boxer using lateral movement, working behind the jab etc and using that movement along with head movement for his defense more than just upper body dexterity as per Toney.

Definitely agree with you about Graham. He really was fantastic. I find it strange that so few people know of him and dig his fighting. He was damn fine! Actually, that whole group of light/middle/supermiddleweights were one of the greatest in terms of talent that I can remember. I don't think that era gets it's proper dues for the amount of stunning, talented fighters. The great thing was there was every type of great fighter. You had super ridiculous power punchers (Jackson, McClellan, Benn etc) that could actually box better than half the 'boxers' today as well as the boxer/punchers like McCallum, Eubank, Curry (when he moved up), Toney and the pure boxers as well like Graham, Jones Jr, Watson etc etc blah blah. I'm sure you get my point.

Yep, love Duran. His defense was easily the greatest of any inside, offensive based fighter.

I can't take credit for that HL, no, but it's my fave on the net.

Of the guys mentioned, in terms of defense, it is very subjective as to who is the best, because all the guys we are mentioning were known for their slipperiness and ability to avoid shots,so it just depends on who you like. I like Whitaker for his all around game to compliment his defense.

Also, theres just so many...Too many to enjoy thats it's nearly impossible to say this guy is the best and all the rest just don't come close. I prefer a good defensive type fighter or a fighter that actually has some serious skills to any other really but when you look at the amount of guys and the different styles, like a Duran who fights so vastly different from a Whittaker and yet still have such great defense it's too hard to actually pick just one guy.

Not only that but there are tons of guys that we haven't even seen much footage of like Pep who is the obvious front-runner of this whole thread. The original defensive genius. You're right man, it's completely subjective and entirely based on personal opinion...much like everything on here lol