BEST POUND 4 POUND CHAMP EVER? and top 10

[Lubutheimmortal]

at least roy jones jr is stil fighting and winnning.

Im not to sure how to take that? I'll just reply "twice" to it.

1) Yea and I personally wish him the best come back because boxings needs his talents to knock UFC down a peg. He is/was a great champion and will earn HOF no doubt.

2) Well for obvious reasons Robinson or Louis cant say the same, but Duran had his last fight in 01 (lost I am sure).

[sterling]

yeh wel he stil tryin to prove himself he did well in his last match but he hasnt alot of time left

[Lubutheimmortal]

yeh wel he stil tryin to prove himself he did well in his last match but he hasnt alot of time left

True that, and I only wish the best for him. I think he still has alot left in him personally. About him vs B hop n Taylor (something that got lost in the thread). Idc is they was both green then, and its "prove" nothing. Itd be a damn good fight, and Jones could rly use the win over a potential GOAT MW even if he already has it under him. Taylor I do belive wouldnt give Jones much problems,....but I still want to see the fight to see how Taylor would handle someone of Jones's caliber.

[Brassangel]

Just so you know, I was never trying to make an insult towards you. Words like "silly" and "rediculous" are directed towards sweeping statements and speculative pokes and not at the person. I actually believe that BoxingScene has turned into quite a friendly atmosphere recently, given the absence of a few argumenative (albeit, great) previous posters.

I was also never stating that Roy was better than Robinson; he may win if they fought, given the size, speed, power advantages, etc., but that's not the goal here in determining ATG's. I just feel as though Roy deserves to be mentioned among the greatest, because his accomplishments, dominance, and longevity (ie: not losing until he was 35) are on par, or better than many others who are reserved on the lists for vintage sake.

[Lubutheimmortal]

Its all good Brass. The thing about Tua being top 5 HW or something like that was what I was talking about more then anything. Idk who that guy is and I certainly dont think he is. Like I said I make my listing going on p4p who wins the most against who, who was the best boxer and most complete. I dont dis agree with your (anyone elses) methods just the way I do things. Seems more "fun" my way. Yea this forum has gotten better (I've been reading here for months just dont post often). Never was hating on Roy even thought it seemed to be so, I enjoy watching him fight and will follow his comeback till the end.

[sterling]

yeh i hope royjones does wel.

[Brassangel]

People seem to lose their passion for things they are heavily involved in after so long, and I think that this happens to boxers in particular. Roy, for example, had been pretty much uncontested from his amateur days all the way through winning the heavyweight crown. One day, he gets called out by a hot-shot, up-and-comer in the light heavyweight division, so he figures, "all right, one more go around." The money was right, and the public wanted more, so naturally, there was a rematch, despite his victory. Unfortunately for him, it was a fight that tarnished his otherwise pristine career. Then he fights a few more times hoping to go out with some wins, but you can see from those fights that he had lost a little zip, and his heart just wasn't in it anymore.

It only makes sense for him to come back. A fighter who stays away for awhile, but still actively works out will probably feel as though they can take on the world. It's like being born again, so to speak. Hopefully, this will carry Jones to some important victories.

[hhascup]

Ali's poor defensive skills should be taken into consideration when formulating a p4p list and his relative location on said list. He suffered from these flaws throughout the majority of his career. Jones may have (and I stress "may"), had a chin problem, but that really only made itself evident in one fight; a rematch from a contest that he had won previously. After that, Jones was simply old. I would go so far as to say that poor defensive skills are far more important than a chin when rating a champion. Especially since a chin isn't something you can do much about in the way of training, whereas a champion is something you train to become.

I just want to ask, why do you say that Ali had poor defensive skills. Nat Fleischer put out a list just before he died on several different categories and one of them was defense, here's his top 3.

1. Jack Johnson
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Tommy Loughran

In his prime (1960-1967), it was very hard to hit Ali. You could count the punches that did.

Also, watch Ali in this film against Dokes, at approx. the 2 minute mark you will see what I am talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a119w...elated&search=


Also, here's Nat Fleischer's picks as who had the best jab.

1. Joe Louis
2. Ali
3. Jem Driscoll

Here's his picks on the Best Combination Puncher

1. Benny Leonard
2. Ray Robinson
3. Muhammad Ali

[Brassangel]

Ali had a great physical swiftness, and could therefore lean away from punches, but as Joe Louis would point out in his autobiography:

(Louis p 260), “Ali’s a great fighter, (but) he made too many mistakes, his hands are down a lot, and he takes too many punches to the body. I know what I’m talking about.

"Technically, Ali wasn't a very good fighter; it was just that his physical gifts (speed, reflexes, and chin) were so astonishing that he was able to get away with things that would have gotten most fighters beaten up. Some may argue he did end beaten up when his career was over. George Foreman noted on his web-site (www.georgeforeman.com) that after Ali’s speed diminished “it became apparent that he never really learned defense.”"

I, for one, would listen to Joe Louis, one of the greatest boxing brains in terms of solving opponents, before Nat Fleischer. Not that he doesn't know what he's talking about, but still; Joe's experience in the ring speaks for itself, and he spent a lot of time with Ali and studying him on film.

George Chuvalo, who was slow footed, lacked pure punching skill or speed, managed to find success to Ali's body, setting up flush shots to the chin in the 13th round of their fight while Ali was in his prime. Doug Jones, a small heavyweight with modest ability was able to be competative with Ali because he had quick hands and a good jab of his own. In both fights with Henry Cooper, Ali was hit cleanly by jabs. Even though he went on to win these contests, very average opponents were able to give him trouble while he was at his quickest. A well-passed-his-prime Sonny Liston was less than centimeters behind Ali when he threw a jab, but instead decided to go for the kill in a fight that he didn't train seriously for. I can guarantee Liston would have landed that jackhammer jab to counter Ali's jab were he[Liston] any younger. Even if Ali's speed would have saved him, there's a good chance that Liston's jab would have forced a different strategy from the young, dancing Clay.

I never said that Ali didn't have a good jab, just that his jab left him open to counterpunching. Unfortunately for this theory, he never faced a top-notch contender who possessed this ability until later in his career. When he did, he got hit a lot.

Ali also used right uppercuts to try to catch incoming opponents, which often left the right side of his face wide open. Regardless of his time spent away from the ring, this is one reason why Frazier and Norton were able to catch him cleanly so often. His chin saved him in these fights, not his defense. Were it an opponent with faster hands and an ability to finish, such as Joe Louis or Mike Tyson, for example, Ali may not have recovered.

He was very difficult to hit from 1960-1967, because he never fought anyone with more than adequate ability to accomplish the simple measures for beating him; short of an over-the-hill Liston, or a quickly fading, suffering from back injury-laden Patterson.

Nonetheless, I still rate Muhammad Ali as my #2 all-time heavyweight (sometimes #1, depending on the day). I'm just making clear that a critical eye can really show how hittable, and downright beatable anyone in history truly is.

[hhascup]

I really don't see anyone that could have beaten him when he was at his best. You say Chuvalo gave him a battle, well the scores were as follows:

referee: Jackie Silvers 73-65
judge: Tony Canzano 74-63
judge: Jackie Johnstone 74-62

referee: Dave Brown 59-51
judge: Tommy Paonessa 60-46
judge: Tommy Keyes 58-51

Not very close.

Doug Jones hit him with a vey good right hand in the 1st round, BUT Ali won most the the remaining rounds. Several years ago I gave the tape of that bout to several well known boxing judges and asked them to judge the bout for themselves and they came out with an average score of 7-3 for Ali.

Cooper did hit him with a perfect left hook, BUT again Ali got up and stopped Cooper on cuts in the next rounds. Some people say that it took several minutes before they got another glove for Ali, BUT the film states a lot different.

With that, Ali was only 21 years old at the time and still filling out.

In the 1st Liston bout, Ali made Sonny look old. Liston had just KO'ed Patterson twice and boxing experts were comparing him with some of the all-time Greats.

I rate Ali #1 because he beat the better Heavyweights then anyone else, including Joe Louis. Here's a list that is 2nd to none

1. George Foreman - 6' 3½ - 220 – (76-5) - 68 KO
2. Joe Frazier (Won 2/3) - 5' 11½ - 205½, 209, 215 – (32-4-1) - 27 KO
3. Sonny Liston (Won 2) - 6' 0½ - 218, 215¼ - (50-4) - 39 KO
4. Ken Norton (Won 2/3) - 6' 3 – 210, 205, 217½ - (42-7-1) - 33 KO
5. Floyd Patterson (Won 2) - 6' 0 - 196¾, 188½ - (55-8-1) - 40 KO
6. Jerry Quarry (Won 2) – 6' 0 - 197½ , 198 - (53-9-4) - 32 KO
7. Oscar Bonavena - 5' 10½ - 204 – (58-9-1) - 44 KO
8. Jimmy Ellis - 6' 1 – 189 – (40-12-1) - 24 KO
9. Zora Folley - 6' 1 - 202½ - (79-11-6) - 44 KO
10. Ernie Terrell - 6' 6 - 212¼ - (45-9) - 21 KO
11. George Chuvalo (Won 2) - 6' 0 – 216, 221 – (73-18-2) - 64 KO
12. Ron Lyle - 6' 3 – 219 – (43-7-1) - 31 KO
13. Earnie Shavers - 6' 0 - 211¼ - (74-14-1) - 68 KO
14. Joe Bugner (Won 2) - 6' 4 – 219, 230 – (69-13-1) - 41 KO
15. Bob Foster - 6' 3 – 180 – (56-8-1) - 46 KO
16. Mac Foster - 6' 2 - 211¼ - (30-6) – 30 KO
17. Karl Mildenberger - 6' 1½ - 195 – (53-6-3) – 19 KO
18. Archie Moore - 5' 11 – 191 – (185-23-11) – 131 KO
19. Jimmy Young - 6' 2 – 209 – (34-19-2) – 11 KO
20. Cleveland Williams - 6' 3 - 210½ (78-13-1) – 58 KO
21. Doug Jones - 6' 0 – 188 – (30-10-1) – 20 KO
22. Henry Cooper (Won 2) - 185½ , 188 – (40-14-1) – 27 KO
23. Leon Spinks (Won 1/2) - 6' 1 - 197¼, 201 – (26-17-3) – 14 KO


All in all, Ali fought a total of 38 Top 10 contenders, when they were rated in the Top 10, in his 61 bouts, That's a percentage of 62.295% and if you count the boxers that he fought that were at one time or another rated in the Top 10, Ali fought a total of 38 different opponents 49 times, which is a percentage of 80.3279%.


Henry Cooper in his biography stated:

"I would jab once, the I'd double jab. He'd jerk his head back to the first, then the second and I'd sling in yet another jab and he'd jerk back from that too. He could judge a punch to the last quarter inch...he could play with margins as narrow as that...but after his jerks he could still come back with a sneaky right hand."

Zora Folley in Sports Illustrated:

"Louis wouldn't have a chance; he was too slow... There's no way to train yourself for what he does. The moves, the speed, the punches and the way he changes style every time you think you got him figured. The right hands Ali hit me with just had no business landing but they did. They came from nowhere. Many times he was in the wrong position but he hit me anyway. I've never seen anyone who could do that. The knockdown punch was so fast that I never saw it. He has lots of snap, and when the punches land they dizzy your head; they fuzz up your mind. He's smart. The trickiest fighter I've seen. He's had twenty-nine fights and acts like he's had a hundred. He could write the book on boxing, and anyone that fights him should be made to read it."