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Ali is Overrated

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Lance Uppercut View Post
    Ali is overated, great heavyweight no doubt but not nearly the freakishly great boxer historians have made him out to be. Hell, Holyfield in his prime would have taken this guy in hard fought 12 round TKO. Go ahead, let the flaming begin.

    And BTW, to the guy who said Ali was a great human being outside the ring- what the hell have you been smoking!?
    Originally posted by oaktwn1 View Post
    Man.. I completely agree that a prime Holyfield beats Ali...take out all other preconcieved notions...then watch films of them both...If you really know boxing there is no doubt who the better fighter is...well said..
    Okay. Please let me know when you two are off the drugs and sober. At that point an INTELLIGENT conversation might be able to take place.

    Poet

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    • #62
      "Okay. Please let me know when you two are off the drugs and sober. At that point an INTELLIGENT conversation might be able to take place."



      I've got a better one- I'd love for you to explain to me why Holyfield is so inferior to Ali that the mere suggestion Evander would take him qualifies as me being both "on drugs" and and unINTELLIGENT.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Lance Uppercut View Post
        "Okay. Please let me know when you two are off the drugs and sober. At that point an INTELLIGENT conversation might be able to take place."



        I've got a better one- I'd love for you to explain to me why Holyfield is so inferior to Ali that the mere suggestion Evander would take him qualifies as me being both "on drugs" and and unINTELLIGENT.

        What sets Ali apart from EVERY other Heavyweight is his speed: Footspeed and handspeed. They has never been any other like him in terms of speed. Then there's his chin. I've seen very few take a punch better. It's the same with body punches: I've seen few fighters absorb punishment better. The thing is, in his prime, nobody knew about his chin because he rarely got hit flush. It was only after his reflexes were lost to age that it came out.

        Holyfield, as great a fighter as he was, had no where near Ali's hand and foot speed. And that's really what it comes down to: Speed. It's what set Ali apart frome everyother Heavyweight.

        Poet

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        • #64
          Lots of ordinary fighters gave Ali hell. Holyfield certainly would

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          • #65
            I'm talking Ali in his prime. From Liston up to the exhile. During that period he was untouchable even by a great fighter like Holyfield in HIS prime. People seem to think the Ali who fought Frazier and Foreman and struggled against Norton was prime Ali: It wasn't. When he came back after three years in the wilderness his contemporaries all noted he had noticeably lost speed and his reflexes wheren't as sharp, ie. he was passed his prime. If you want to see prime Ali watch his fights against Cleveland Williams, Ernie Terrell, and Jimmy Ellis. As great as I believe Evander is, a prime Holyfield is no match for a prime Ali.

            Poet

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            • #66
              Never underestimate a great counterpuncher, add to that Holyfield's unmatchable heart and this fight would be one entertaining war! I stick to my drug induced, unintelligent prediction that Holy wins by 12 round TKO.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by poet682006 View Post
                I'm talking Ali in his prime. From Liston up to the exhile. During that period he was untouchable even by a great fighter like Holyfield in HIS prime. People seem to think the Ali who fought Frazier and Foreman and struggled against Norton was prime Ali: It wasn't. When he came back after three years in the wilderness his contemporaries all noted he had noticeably lost speed and his reflexes wheren't as sharp, ie. he was passed his prime. If you want to see prime Ali watch his fights against Cleveland Williams, Ernie Terrell, and Jimmy Ellis. As great as I believe Evander is, a prime Holyfield is no match for a prime Ali.
                Poet
                ** Poet aint a boxing poet and he don't know it.

                Ellis was post exile, post Frazier 1, though he did dispose of Ellis fairly easy.

                Bringing up Williams is a joke. Terrell gave Ali a hard fight in spite of recieving death threats and having a gang of NOI members barg into his hotel room the night before the fight and rearrange all his furniture and leave in an obvious show of intimidation.

                Though I think a prime Ali could handle Holy, he is hardly invincible. Mildenberger and Chuvalo gave him tough fights and Holy is much better than them.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by LondonRingRules View Post
                  ** Poet aint a boxing poet and he don't know it.

                  Ellis was post exile, post Frazier 1, though he did dispose of Ellis fairly easy.

                  Bringing up Williams is a joke. Terrell gave Ali a hard fight in spite of recieving death threats and having a gang of NOI members barg into his hotel room the night before the fight and rearrange all his furniture and leave in an obvious show of intimidation.

                  Though I think a prime Ali could handle Holy, he is hardly invincible. Mildenberger and Chuvalo gave him tough fights and Holy is much better than them.
                  Thank you. Ali is beatable by any decent heavyweight, pre-exile Ali even more so than post exile.

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                  • #69
                    Speed, and that's all? What about styles, and everything else that comes into play.
                    I definitely agree, Ali is not unbeatable at all. What people fail to understand, is that Ali was great at adapting, he would show who's the better fighter in a trilogy, not beat anyone ever lived and be done with it. Sometimes you can't measure greatness by looking at 1 fight. Frazier beat Ali, what if they didn't have a rematch? Would that have meant Frazier was the better fighter? No, it just means Ali could be beaten, but not twice or most of the time. So, i personally think many fighters, like kayjay mentioned, would have beaten Ali in a fight. But what makes Ali so great, was his ability to come back from defeat, adapt and win the majority of a trilogy. That's what made him one of the greatest. Norton, Louis, Marciano, Holmes and maybe people like Holyfield, Tyson Lewis could have all beaten Ali, but i'd bet my money on Ali winning most of 3 fights(Maybe not against all of them though)

                    So this is how Ali is overrated imo. People think he couldn't be beaten AT ALL.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by LondonRingRules View Post
                      ** Poet aint a boxing poet and he don't know it.

                      Ellis was post exile, post Frazier 1, though he did dispose of Ellis fairly easy.

                      Bringing up Williams is a joke. Terrell gave Ali a hard fight in spite of recieving death threats and having a gang of NOI members barg into his hotel room the night before the fight and rearrange all his furniture and leave in an obvious show of intimidation.

                      Though I think a prime Ali could handle Holy, he is hardly invincible. Mildenberger and Chuvalo gave him tough fights and Holy is much better than them.
                      You better check the record, Ellis was NOT post exhile. It was after he was stripped by the New York Boxing Commission but NOT after the exhile. A trip to BoxRec.com is in order for you I think. Cleveland Willims was considered to be an EXTREMELY dangerous fighter, so much so that Patterson avoided him. Terrell just flat got the **** beat out of him. You might want to try WATCHING that fight. Mildenberger was the first southpaw Ali faced and he didn't quite know how to fight him. Why are people slagging Chuvalo? He gave pretty much EVERYONE he faced a hard time. You couldn't hurt him and he just kept coming. Frazier had trouble with him too, he was a punishment sponge who made all his opponents look bad.

                      Poet

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