Ali is Overrated

[StarshipTrooper]

Isn't it amazing how threads like these really bring the Ali haters out of the woodwork, kinda like roaches. It makes me want to spray this entire thread with D-Con (Kills 'em dead). Talk about ignorant *******s. They need to try hating on fighters actually deserving of it. Like Wlad Klitschko and Floyd Mayweather. What jackasses!

Poet

[Brassangel]

Frazier did look a little awkward in the 2nd fight compared to the first, and he was started to head on the down slope. My post was complimenting how Ali had visibly improved from their first meeting, as he had managed to shake off his post-layoff ring rust by that time. He had also not yet met with George Foreman, as did Frazier, which takes a lot out of a man. Ali also managed to dance for almost the entire fight. He only ever clinched when Joe got close to him. The last time I checked, that's a pretty good strategy against someone who has great game on the inside.

I guess what I was trying to say was this; Joe Frazier was at his best in the first fight. Ali was looser, more accurate, and more nimble in the 2nd fight. If you take the best of each fighter, it's still a whale of a fight, but I think it goes from being 8-6-1 Frazier (which any reasonable person scores the first fight, unless you're ******ed), to 8-6-1 Ali. That swift, accurate edge he gains is difficult for Joe to overcome. Whenever Ali was able to flurry in any of the three fights, Joe simply got hit and usually had to walk into a clinch to regain the advantage.

Am I saying that Joe Frazier couldn't beat a prime Ali? No. It's certainly possible. Given how close all three fights were, however, even after Ali had lost his edge, I believe that Ali would take a close decision.

Oh yeah, staying on the topic of the thread's title: Ali was never invincible.

[butterfly1964]

He decided not to jeopardize his boxing career and in turn, jeopardized his own abilities in the ring.

Also, in bad shape or not (during the exchange with Cooper), Ali was disciplined. He knew his own ability to recover. Obviously Cooper didn't land a KO punch the likes of Shavers, but it did scramble Ali's eggs a little bit. When they were "fixing" his glove in the corner, Ali's eyes were not set straight. If he would have immediately gotten back into the scuffle instead of being granted the break, he would have been a touch sloppy. Does that mean Cooper would have beaten him? Absolutely not. Does it show that there's a little myth to the mayhem? Definitely. Even so, this was simply the other side of a coin designed to showcase the hypocrasy which surrounds a man often given every excuse and praise over everyone else.

Just as a side note:

I've noticed that in Ali vs. Frazier II, Ali looked a lot more like his old self than he did in the other two fights. He danced for almost all of the 12 rounds, his punches were very snappy and accurate, and Frazier barely got anything done. He still cut off the ring at times, and worked the body, but he wasn't landing clean, bombastic hooks as he was in fights 1 and 3. While Joe was starting to decline following his fight with Foreman, I think that this very well could have been a more accurate portrayal of what may have happened had they fought in their prime.

Clay definetely was in some trouble, I'm not doubting that, but some people are saying here that Ali was "ko'd" or something ****** like that. As for your analysis of the secons ali-frazier fight, I have been saying that all along.

[butterfly1964]

The first fight is the most accurate portrayal. Ali tried to dance in round 5, but Frazier easily caught up to him and landed some good shots. Prime Frazier would have beaten the dancing Ali with relative ease.

Convenient how people use the second fight where Ali clinched the whole night and landed pitter patter punches as the fight that would have determined the outcome in their primes. Frazier didn't even swarm that night, Eddie Futch apparently had Frazier change his stance. He just stood there with his gloves up. The bobbing and weaving was key for Frazier to beat Ali.

Sure, the first fight was accurate for a prime for prime matchup when one was in his prime and the other wasn't. Great logic there Sherlock!

[butterfly1964]

Isn't it amazing how threads like these really bring the Ali haters out of the woodwork, kinda like roaches. It makes me want to spray this entire thread with D-Con (Kills 'em dead).

[butterfly1964]

Frazier did look a little awkward in the 2nd fight compared to the first, and he was started to head on the down slope. My post was complimenting how Ali had visibly improved from their first meeting, as he had managed to shake off his post-layoff ring rust by that time. He had also not yet met with George Foreman, as did Frazier, which takes a lot out of a man. Ali also managed to dance for almost the entire fight. He only ever clinched when Joe got close to him. The last time I checked, that's a pretty good strategy against someone who has great game on the inside.

I guess what I was trying to say was this; Joe Frazier was at his best in the first fight. Ali was looser, more accurate, and more nimble in the 2nd fight. If you take the best of each fighter, it's still a whale of a fight, but I think it goes from being 8-6-1 Frazier (which any reasonable person scores the first fight, unless you're ******ed), to 8-6-1 Ali. That swift, accurate edge he gains is difficult for Joe to overcome. Whenever Ali was able to flurry in any of the three fights, Joe simply got hit and usually had to walk into a clinch to regain the advantage.

Am I saying that Joe Frazier couldn't beat a prime Ali? No. It's certainly possible. Given how close all three fights were, however, even after Ali had lost his edge, I believe that Ali would take a close decision.

Oh yeah, staying on the topic of the thread's title: Ali was never invincible.

...

[Brunswick Assassin]

Ali is a 'Poor Man's Sugar Ray Robinson'! Where do you think he got his moves and his shorts from??? There is absolutely no doubt that Ali was a great Heavy but Sugar Ray's the P4P King!

[WelshDevilRob]

Only fools think Ali was overrated. Seems there are alot of fools on BoxingScene.

[ForemanCrossArm]

Frazier had Ali OUT ON HIS FEET in fight 1.
Frazier would've had Ali out on his feet by round 15 in "Super Fight" if there would've been one..
Frazier was BLIND AND ONE-ARMED and still had Ali OUT ON HIS FEET (he couldn't even sit down, let's face it) by the time he LET them (HIS CORNER) quit.

[butterfly1964]

Frazier had Ali OUT ON HIS FEET in fight 1.
Frazier would've had Ali out on his feet by round 15 in "Super Fight" if there would've been one..
Frazier was BLIND AND ONE-ARMED and still had Ali OUT ON HIS FEET (he couldn't even sit down, let's face it) by the time he LET them (HIS CORNER) quit.

Ali had Frazier "out on his feet" in the second and third fights. There you go, buddy.