Middleweight greats, if only!

[Boxalot]

Hi, i'm new to this site so go easy! I only started reading yesterday after this site was recommended to me by a member of another forum i post on. Here it goes:

Excluding Fitzsimmons, Langford (as their ideal weights are relatively unknown) and Robinson (better at Welterweight) my top 4 middleweights are Greb, Ketchel, Monzon and Hagler.

That brings me to the following: Stanley Ketchel started his career in 1903, and was tragically killed in 1910 at the age of 24. In his last fight, against Jim Smith, he weighed around 160lbs. Now, Greb started his career in 1913 and he also died prematurely, in 1926. Now these two, unfortunate facts got me thinking. If neither of them, particularly Ketchel, died so early on in their lives these two could have fought. My dream fantasy fight could have been fulfilled. Ketchel was 8 years older yes, but Greb was more active, fighting up to and over 12 fights a year, although that's not saying Ketchel wasn't very active as he fitted well over 50 fights into his 7 year career. Ketchel would probably have been past his prime but it would have been a great fight nonethless, and it genuinely could have happened.

So, who do you guys think would have won? They would have needed 4 referees to control these monsters, that's for sure! Power v speed, who prevails? I don't think either man would have been KO'd and due to the sheer amount of punches Greb threw, I think he'd take a close points victory. And that leads me to another question. How many rounds would there have been? 12? 15? 20? 25? Possibly even more! When Ketchel fought an inexperienced Joe Thomas in 1907 there were 45 rounds scheduled, but Ketchel KO'd him in the 32nd.

And that leads me to Marvin Hagler and Carlos Monzon. I've always wondered why they never fought. Was Hagler too "green" or was Monzon passed his best? Or was it a combination of both? Hagler started boxing in 1983 and Monzon retired in '87, so probably a combination of both. You know what I am about to ask. Who wins out of a prime Hagler and Prime Monzon? I daren't speculate on this. All I am going to say is that it would have been a cracker.

Had these two barnstormers happened I think selecting the greatest Middleweight of all time would be alot easier. Sadly, neither of them did happen, but that's what creates brilliant forums such as this. Opinions. Opinions on fights which never did happen, even if they should have.

[LondonRingRules]

Hi, i'm new to this site so go easy! I only started reading yesterday after this site was recommended to me by a member of another forum i post on. Here it goes:

Excluding Fitzsimmons, Langford (as their ideal weights are relatively unknown) and Robinson (better at Welterweight) my top 4 middleweights are Greb, Ketchel, Monzon and Hagler.

** Not bad, but better get a tough skin for the incoming. I got a ton of hate when I first came on, you know, jr high kinda tough guys.

You seem to have some imagination, that's good, so I'll tell you what I always thought a tragic irony. Tiger Flowers beat Greb twice as Greb was ending his career half blind. Greb died at age 32 on the operating table while getting his eyes and nose worked on. One year later at age 32, Flowers, half blind himself, suffered the same fate.

[Boxalot]

Londonringrules! I haven't seen you around in a while! I remember when you used to pop onto the BEEB. "Study up", i believe were your wise words to a few of the regulars, haha.

I know what you mean about the regulars being less objective towards new posters (not specifically on this site, on forums in general). I got it when i first started posting on different forums and as you post more, your opinions are respected more.

That is indeed a tragic irony. Tiger Flowers is severely under-rated in my opinion. The strange thing is that he won his last fight, against Gates, relatively easily. Maybe if hospitals back then had the resources available that we do today, Flowers wouldn't have died at the age of 32 and more people would appreciate his talent.

[McGoorty]

Hi, i'm new to this site so go easy! I only started reading yesterday after this site was recommended to me by a member of another forum i post on. Here it goes:

Excluding Fitzsimmons, Langford (as their ideal weights are relatively unknown) and Robinson (better at Welterweight) my top 4 middleweights are Greb, Ketchel, Monzon and Hagler.

That brings me to the following: Stanley Ketchel started his career in 1903, and was tragically killed in 1910 at the age of 24. In his last fight, against Jim Smith, he weighed around 160lbs. Now, Greb started his career in 1913 and he also died prematurely, in 1926. Now these two, unfortunate facts got me thinking. If neither of them, particularly Ketchel, died so early on in their lives these two could have fought. My dream fantasy fight could have been fulfilled. Ketchel was 8 years older yes, but Greb was more active, fighting up to and over 12 fights a year, although that's not saying Ketchel wasn't very active as he fitted well over 50 fights into his 7 year career. Ketchel would probably have been past his prime but it would have been a great fight nonethless, and it genuinely could have happened.

So, who do you guys think would have won? They would have needed 4 referees to control these monsters, that's for sure! Power v speed, who prevails? I don't think either man would have been KO'd and due to the sheer amount of punches Greb threw, I think he'd take a close points victory. And that leads me to another question. How many rounds would there have been? 12? 15? 20? 25? Possibly even more! When Ketchel fought an inexperienced Joe Thomas in 1907 there were 45 rounds scheduled, but Ketchel KO'd him in the 32nd.

And that leads me to Marvin Hagler and Carlos Monzon. I've always wondered why they never fought. Was Hagler too "green" or was Monzon passed his best? Or was it a combination of both? Hagler started boxing in 1983 and Monzon retired in '87, so probably a combination of both. You know what I am about to ask. Who wins out of a prime Hagler and Prime Monzon? I daren't speculate on this. All I am going to say is that it would have been a cracker.

Had these two barnstormers happened I think selecting the greatest Middleweight of all time would be alot easier. Sadly, neither of them did happen, but that's what creates brilliant forums such as this. Opinions. Opinions on fights which never did happen, even if they should have.

I like this a lot, good Questions, the era 1903- about 1929 or so of middleweights is one of my favorite ares of boxing history so I love talking about it. Ketchel vs Greb would be truly interesting, I have thought a lot about what would happen in a GREB vs DARCY bout, because of Darcy's tragic death at 21 in 1917, Harry and Les were the same age and would have been one of the most awesome ever. I cannot pick a winner as I've never seen Harry in action but I've seen all Darcy's filmed fights. If Greb was as good OR BETTER as what I've seen of Darcy he would truly be a genius. I have seen Ketchel of couse but I don't see much (the Papke fight), the film jumps a bit but Papke looks Ketchel's equal, I think Darcy was another level, I just don't see how ketchel could win against Les's ability and chin, Stanley's power was great, so was Darcy's, Ketchel was a hater and Les was incapable of hate ( except maybe Jeff Smith ), Les enjoyed a fight though. I will go for a Harry Greb victory over Ketchel, especially if it took place mid 20's. '........................ As for MONZON vs HAGLER, you could count on one hand how many people WOULDN'T want Hagler to knock Monzon out. Hagler was NASTY in the ring but Monzon was NASTY in the ring, NASTIER outside of it, Hagler's best chance against Monzon's extra physical advantage I think would be the game plan he used to such success against Tommy although I'm sure that Monzon is TOTALLY different from Hearns in his chin and style. I would like to think Marvin could stop Monzon around the 4th-6th round but I don't give Hagler any hope that he'd win a decision over the 15 ronds though so EITHER Hagler by KO or Monzon by UD. I don't think RAY LEONARD would have matched Monzon as well as Hagler,.... Different Styles etc. GO MARVELLOUS MARV.

[kendom]

Interesting match ups, I think Greb would have beaten Ketchel, I dont see him getting knocked out and Greb was incredibly fast and maneuverable, so Ketchel would have missed a lot of punches and wuld pay for his mistakes. I see Greb outpointing him over the ideal distance of 15 rounds and even longer.

As for Monzon and Hagler, Monzon's chin was no Tommy Hearns and Monzon was a very good technician and has the height and reach advantage, so I would think Monzon edges him inn a close decision.