93' Royce Gracie vs Matt Hughes

[res]

With old UFC rules: no rules, for as long as it takes.

I got Gracie.

[Spare Moody]

i don't.....

[jakkups]

I got Hughes without question. More well rounded, superior conditioning, 10x more strength, better striker... In all honesty 93 Gracie had less of a chance than the Gracie that fought him in 06. All Royce ever had going for him was that he was a BJJ expert and every guy he fought more or less had no clue what BJJ was, what submissions were, and were predominantly from one style of fighting which in the early days was mainly striking.

[res]

I got Hughes without question. More well rounded, superior conditioning, 10x more strength, better striker... In all honesty 93 Gracie had less of a chance than the Gracie that fought him in 06. All Royce ever had going for him was that he was a BJJ expert and every guy he fought more or less had no clue what BJJ was, what submissions were, and were predominantly from one style of fighting which in the early days was mainly striking.

Well first, there isn't just "knowing grappling" and "not knowing grappling" there are ofcourse levels in grappling, and Gracie was at an elite level. Second , 93' Gracie was a lot younger and had the stamina that youth brings, and that brings me to the heart of the matter.

As one of his brothers said in the past, that style was designed for a no time limit, no rules scenario. In other words, it isn't about scoring points to impress a judge or a referee, it is about surviving the fight with your skill untill you find a way to win. You bring up Hughes strength and that is exactly the point, he had the strength to knock Royce out with one or two punches, but he couldn't. Royce was smiling and shaking his hand after the fight, an old Royce. In a 93' Royce against Hughes match in a situation with no time limit i.e. none of those short few minute rounds that Hughes' stamina has been conditioned to, in a fight that keeps on going no matter how long it takes untill someone submits, I would certainly favor Royce. it's not a sprint for his style, it's a marathon and Hughes is a sprinter.

[Palma]

Hughes is too powerful for Gracie and too skilled.

[Palma]

Just think if would have been Rickson instead of Royce to represent Gracie BJJ in the UFC tournaments. He would beat Hughes in my opinion.

[YUHHHHHHH!]

Matt Hughes wins Via Gi Choke IMO.

[Spare Moody]

As one of his brothers said in the past, that style was designed for a no time limit, no rules scenario. In other words, it isn't about scoring points to impress a judge or a referee, it is about surviving the fight with your skill untill you find a way to win.

where that is a good point you hafta remember that these matches only went the distance with other BJJ experts using very little of any other style. most of the time they were fighting BJJ only matches. Jiu Jitsu experts expend very little energy during matches when pulling off transitions- hence, one of the greatest aspects of the style itself. but since there wasn't really any true MMA at the time, somebody would be tapped out pretty quick if they took their focus away from BJJ.

MMA has evolved since then which is why Gracies can't win matches as frequently so they, in typical Gracie style, chose not to compete as frequently. if there were no time limit i do think that Royce would last longer than he did when fought Hughes and i don't think he would ever tap out. one of the 3 things would be inevitable. Royce would either:
1. get pummeled into a hamburger- corner throws in towel
2. get one of his limbs snapped and be unable to continue
3. go unconscious from being choked out

don't forget, as mentioned earlier, the 1993 Royce would be caught completely off guard with a modern MMA fighting style.

[Drunken Cat]

Hughes would win.

Gracie could've in fact gone to Japan and fought real competition (i.e. Pancrase) but the reality is he stuck to fighting hand-picked guys in the UFC. He was very lucky to beat Kimo, the rest of his opponents except Shamrock were garbage.

[res]

=Cptn. Howdy;3579087]where that is a good point you hafta remember that these matches only went the distance with other BJJ experts using very little of any other style. most of the time they were fighting BJJ only matches. Jiu Jitsu experts expend very little energy during matches when pulling off transitions- hence, one of the greatest aspects of the style itself. but since there wasn't really any true MMA at the time, somebody would be tapped out pretty quick if they took their focus away from BJJ.

MMA has evolved since then which is why Gracies can't win matches as frequently so they, in typical Gracie style, chose not to compete as frequently. if there were no time limit i do think that Royce would last longer than he did when fought Hughes and i don't think he would ever tap out. one of the 3 things would be inevitable. Royce would either:
1. get pummeled into a hamburger- corner throws in towel
2. get one of his limbs snapped and be unable to continue
3. go unconscious from being choked out

don't forget, as mentioned earlier, the 1993 Royce would be caught completely off guard with a modern MMA fighting style.

Well there isn't a whole lot that you can do from the ground besides juijitsu-like techniques unless you mean to refer to the few techniques from Greco-Roman wrestling that have come into the game since then. Striking from the ground existed in Brazillian juijitsu already, infact it was a crucial part of it.

I already discussed the major reason that Gracies say they don't compete in many tournaments anymore. They say the time limit and rules play against Gracie juijitsu's very strength i.e. surviving for as long as it takes untill you find a way to take the other guy out (Rorion is against the idea entirely and has said so in interviews). It is a pretty good point i think, and all the more so if you remember the gracies when they first came on the scene in the 90's. They came in claiming that their style was the best in a specific kind of situation. That situation was a no rules no time limit scenario. This ofcourse, they said, was the kind of scenario that best reflected a real life situation. Now the UFC, under political pressure, dumped it's no rules, no time limit format and took on a bunch of rules (including a time limit) imposed by an athletic commission. The Gracies, by saying that this was not the set up they signed up for, aren't saying anything different then they said 15 years ago.

Also you have to remember that the Gracies (including Royce) fought against fighters with no weight classes both in the ring and in the dojo. That means they haven't just felt power on the level of a pretty strong Welter weight like Matt Hughes, they have tangled with 250, 300 pound opponents. That is far stronger than Matt Hughes. Now one must admit that Hughes is a better combination of both strength and skill than most of those fighters were, but he faces an elite grappler in his prime who has felt enormous strength before.

I think the last two inevitable things you gave on your list are unlikely in the extreme (prime gracie getting tapped out by hughes is fanciful) but the first is quite possible. I still favor prime Royce in this scenario though but now that i think about it, maybe i should take Palma's advice and bring Rickson in instead for a more certain outcome.