The Daily Bread Mailbag returns with Stephen "Breadman" Edwards tackling topics such as Deontay Wilder's chin, Canelo Alvarez vs. Gennady Golovkin trilogy, Andy Ruiz vs. Anthony Joshua rematch, and more.
You’re the best. Great breakdown on Taylor vs Prograis. I was rooting for Rougarou throughout but excellent prediction. You indicated undefeated fighters trusting their gifts too much. I immediately thought of J rock getting slightly greedy when he was even or in my mind out boxing and beating Charlo. Then I scratched my head for other examples and came up with Ray Leonard vs Duran I and Ali vs Frazier on March 8 1970. What are your top 5 examples of this?
Is it just me or is JRock’s stance on 90 days of testing limiting the pool of willing fighters. You would think that guys would jump at the chance to beat the top dog and get the belts Props to both of y’all for the character and integrity you show in and out of the ring.
Bread’s Response: Talented fighters get greedy often if things are going their way especially if they haven’t lost. Rougarou is a really gifted with his relaxation and ability to fight in the mid range. He’s a natural fighter. But at times he lets too many incoming shots go and he looks like he’s getting outworked. James Toney had the same problem although Toney turned out to be special. Toney was not as dominant as some people remember. He had plenty of close calls because of this. I just felt in my guts that the same thing would happen to Rougarou.
Top 5 examples of fighters who got greedy with their gifts in tough fights.
1. Meldrick Taylor vs Julio Cesar Chavez. Taylor became addicted to putting hands on Chavez and he disregarded what was happening to him.
2. Terry Norris had a great 1st round vs Julian Jackson. Then boom splat.
3. John Tate vs Mike Weaver. My goodness just watch the fight.
4. Zab Judah vs Kostya Tsyzu. Same fight as Norris vs Jackson.
5. Cotto vs Margarito. Cotto had realized he was an elite boxer the year before vs Shane Mosley. He could really stick and move. And I know there is a handwrap controversy surrounding this fight but Cotto allowed Margarito to carry him too fast. He over moved and he exhausted his resistance. But Cotto didn’t realize it because he was putting hands on Margarito.
Big fan of the mailbag.
I do think I need some clarification on a couple things.
I am surprised that you said Wilder has more heart than Wlad showed over his career (maybe I misinterpreted you, if so my bad). Here's why...
Wlad came back from three ugly KO losses and then dominated the HW division for many years. Nine years? Against many top 10 contenders. He doesn't have any ducks as champ. I would argue he has as much or more heart than Vitali. What I mean to say is that if you are durable, and you know you are durable it is easier to be brave, but Wlad was always a bit more chinny than his brother and yet he stepped up to the plate again and again and didn't get choosywith his fights. Look at the Sam Peyer fight. Talk about resurrected demons he had to stare in the face after those knockdowns. He seems like a guy that can be knocked down but is not so easy to put away in the HW division where everyone is a puncher. Was that Peter fight going to be another Corrie Sanders beat down? No. He dug deep. Remember that Samuel Peter was regarded as the next big thing, but Wlad did what a champ does, separates the hype from the real deal. He beat better competition than Wilder so far too. He modified from just rushing KO's in the first act of his career to playing the long game in the second act of a game that takes no prisoners. I'm just saying I think Wlad's heart is underrated.
Also, I like you p4p, but I also wonder why GGG has slipped right off. His draw and loss to Canelo should have been a win and a draw. He took the #4 p4p guy on your list to the brink and then bounced back to beat a top 6 in Sergey D. If we are talking about struggling performances, pretty much everyone on that p4p list has struggled against elite competition (Inoue vs Old Donaire).
How highly do you rate the eyeball test in your p4p criteria? Timeliness of opponents on resume. Depth of resume. Longevity of dominance/success. These probably all factor in.
Lastly, who is S. Taylor?
Bread’s Response: S. Taylor is Scott Taylor. I have been high on him for a while and I think he deserves P4P mention.
Let me clarify. I think all fighters have heart. But there are levels. Wlad Klitschko has plenty of heart. He will fight anyone. He kept fighting after bad career kos when he could have packed it in. But that’s not ALL heart. Some of the better words to describe Wlad is RESILIENT, PRIDEFUL and AMBITIOUS.
In a boxing ring. Wlad is often very tepid. He played it safe and boxed cautiously vs over matched opponents very often. It happened too often for my liking. He flopped often when hurt and he acted indifferent. He literally was dodging punches falling to the ground vs Brewster and Peter. I’m not trying to be overly critical but it’s what happened.
I think Wlad is a top 20 ever heavyweight. He’s one of the more offensively gifted fighters I have ever seen. Even more so than Deontay Wilder whom everyone is going crazy over his power. Wlad had a better left hook and jab than Wilder and their right hands are comparable. Ask Calvin Brock about Wlad’s right hand. And Wlad does not lose the rounds Wilder does. He’s a better scoring boxer by far. But Wilder is a more vicious human being. He simply is willing to do things Wlad won’t. Wlad should have stopped Anthony Joshua. Joshua was not only out on his feet but he literally couldn’t breath for 2 rounds. But Wlad being cautious and tepid let him off the hook and got stopped himself. I really respect Wlad as a fighter and human being. But I don’t think he fights with the same heart as Wilder. That’s different as far as who a fighter is willing to fight.
I can’t win for losing in this GGG vs Canelo debate. I think very highly of GGG and I think he will get screwed historically. If he got the opponents when he should have, he would have been a top 10 middleweight. Because he didn’t he will be a top 20-25 middleweight.
But I know what I see. He’s not among the best 10 P4P fighters in boxing. There are about 6 guys that I think would beat him from 154-168. I’m telling you guys he’s at the same place Chocolatito was before the SSR KO. He’s giving too much of himself to just break even.
I agree he won the 1st Canelo fight. The 2nd fight I don’t know. I say Canelo or at best a draw. But Canelo fought a “better” fight in both fights. Canelo is ascending while GGG is descending. Take away all personal feelings and you can see Canelo is better at this point and I would pick Canelo to ko GGG if they make a rematch. I know that may get people upset with me but I can only go by what I see and feel.
I thought GGG took too much punishment vs SD. Why do you think everyone is lined to fight him now? The line was not long from 2010-15. Boxers, matchmakers, coaches and managers can see.
When I assess the P4P list. The first thing I factor is who would beat who if all weights were even and height and reach were relative to their active weights. For example we don’t make Deontay Wilder a 5’6” welterweight. He’s a 6’2 welterweight like Mark Breland.
I think there are at least 15 or 16 guys operating at a higher level than GGG at the moment. That’s part of my eyeball test along with overall effectiveness. Then I factor in who they fought and when they fought them. This is part of the resume. But I don’t make it a life time achievement award because if we do Manny Pacquiao goes to #1 and he’s not #1 anymore.
I think Canelo would beat GGG clearly in a 3rd fight. I think he’s operating at a higher level at this moment. And I think he could beat more people if they lined up their opponents. So therefore I have Canelo over him along with a few other people. It’s no indictment on GGG. He’s a 37 yr old pressure fighter who is not overly athletic and he does VADA. But I no longer feel he’s a top 10 P4P fighter.
After some recent re reading on SRL’s welterweight competition - Benitez, Duran and Hearns - with Leonard seemingly having no hesitation in seeking out, fighting and beating certified great and dangerous fighters I began to ponder if Mayweather would have adopted a similar approach to his welterweight peers - Cotto, Margarito, Williams and a slightly younger Mosley if he was was not burdened by protecting his “0”?
Mayweather rematched both Castillio and Maidana (both hard and gruelling styles to overcome)in order to remove any doubt of his superiority and I wonder whether with a loss on his ledger already his desire to show the world that he was the “Best ever” would have allowed him to take the risks associated with working through the top welters rather than at the time fight Hatton who was not at his best at 147 ( not that I think Hatton could have beaten Mayweather at 140).
The steel Mayweather showed in the second round when caught by Mosley leads me to believe he would have plus as you have pointed out in the past Mayweather had the ability and discipline to remain calm and collected under fire and not panic when a few rounds down. I would be interested in your opinion and very much look forward to you taking the time to share your insights on a weekly basis. One additional question... do you think that your analytical approach to questions adds to your knowledge as a trainer? You are posed scenarios covering every, weight class and style of fighter.
In parting, nice piece about you at Hannibal Boxing. You have an integrity to match your boxing acumen.
Best wishes Rob
Bread’s Response: Great Question. Yes my analytical approach helps me. I literally get to exercise my brain on a daily basis. Trainers can become shot too when they can’t process and analyze anymore.
Anybody who says Floyd Mayweather didn’t have heart is crazy. I used to hear that often. I tried to explain to people that he’s the exact opposite of Wlad Klitschko. Floyd may be selective in who is willing to fight but once he gets in the ring he’s all heart and skill.
The two fights that solidified that were against Judah and Mosley. Floyd took both of their hearts in those fights. There was a silent notion that Floyd was scary. Judah jumped out to a good start. Floyd took his time, started walking him down and made Judah come apart to a point where he tried to get disqualified. Mosley thought Floyd was scared of him. Mosley cracked Floyd with his money shot. Floyd buckled, took the shot and started walking Mosley down. So much so Mosley was trying tap gloves so much Floyd punched him in the mouth. Floyd was a G.
But historically I think he cost himself an even higher status. I don’t know if he would have lined them up even more if he had taken a loss vs Castillo. I don’t know him personally to say if that’s how he’s wired or not. But interestingly I made a list of fighters who had a chance to be regarded as better than Ray Robinson if they would have turned left instead of right.
Floyd Mayweather made the list along with Thomas Hearns, Ray Leonard, Roberto Duran, Roy Jones, Julio Cesar Chavez and Manny Pacquiao.
For example I said if Hearns would have simply won his fights vs Hagler and Leonard. Think about where he would be historically along with all of his other accomplishments. His scalps would be Cuevas, Duran, Benitez, Leonard, Hagler and Hill. He would be the best fighter of the 80s and the 80s was the 2nd best decade ever. Hypothetically who would we pick against a 6’1 welterweight with concussive power, who moved up to cruiserweight and won titles.
I went so on and so on. When I got to Floyd I said if that Floyd gets flack for some misses that are ridiculous. He can’t fight every single fighter who shared his weight classes. But let’s just say he fights Casamayor or Freitas while they were undefeated titlist at 130. Not even both but just one. Then after moving to 135, he fights Stevie Johnston who was just as highly regarded as Castillo and a fine champion. Then at 140 instead of going after Gatti he goes after Kostya Tsyzu. Then at 147 he lines up Mosley, Cotto, Margarito and an emerging Pacquaio.
Now I know that’s a lot of fights and way more variables than say Tommy Hearns. But those fights could have been made without changing his weight classes or timeline arrivals in each weight class.
Floyd would have been the betting favorite in each fight. I think if he does that he has a case for #1 P4P ever.
But we will never know. He did his thing the way he wanted to do it and he’s still one of the best ever.
Was up BREADMAN????
Hope all is well with you and yours!!!! I saw J Rock was signed to fight the winner of Charlo/Harrison can't wait!!! What a time to be in the 154 lb div. To my ??? What is the most stacked division you can recall and when was it? I started watching in the 1999-2000 what are some of the must see matches In your opinion? I myself like the WBC but am not a fan of the Franchise tag it seems to me it's about catering to the stars (witch is good business for them) but not to the fans who want to see best vs best. Charlo and Haney can't get the fight they worked hard for. What is your take on it? I think Dennis Hogan puts a great showing of himself and Charlo sneaks by with close decision. I sure hope Bud gets some better Dance partners soon but it looks like he is going to be fighting some 140 pounders in 2020 wouldn't a WBSS at 147 be Fun!!!! What 3 fights would you make if it was up to you any weight class current fighters only? Thanks for all the wisdom!!!! Merry Christmas
Marquez vs Hatton at 140
Winky vs Ward
Bud vs Mayweather
Be nice if Floyd picked a young gun like this!!!! If he comes back what a Legacy builder Like Pac and Keith was.
Bread’s Response: Marquez vs Hatton would be a dog fight. Remember Marquez had life and death with Juan Diaz and Michael Katsiditis (similar styles). Hatton was a handful from 03-05 at 140. I can’t call that.
Ward is too big for Winky.
Bud vs Mayweather great fight. Right now I say Floyd.
154 is stacked. But the deepest division I can remember is 160 in the early 90s. It was ridiculous. Michael Nunn, Mike McCallum, Reggie Johnson, Roy Jones, James Toney, Bernard Hopkins, Nigel Benn, Chris Eubank, Lamar Parks, Julian Jackson, Gerald McCllelan and Steve Collins were all at the same weight at the same time. That’s unreal.
McCallum, Hopkins, Jones, Jackson and Toney turned out to be HOF. Nunn, McCellan, Benn, Eubank and Collins all deserve to be on the ballot. Johnson and Parks were real. Ask anyone from that era and they will tell you.
Let me get straight to the point this time. In heavyweight history only Floyd Patterson (vs Ingemar Johansson), Muhammad Ali (vs Leon Spinks) and Lennox Lewis (vs Hasim Rahman) were able to win the title right back after the defeat. I guess that shows how difficult that feat really is, so I think it's time to give Joshua some props. He could've chosen the easy way out & earn a lot of money for other fights, but he thinks he can do it right this time. How do you see the rematch going? I think that someone like Ruiz will always trouble Joshua. He already proved that he can take his best shot & he knows how to counter. What's the best gameplan from Joshua's perspective heading into the rematch? Do you believe he has what it takes to outbox Andy for 12 rounds? What are the most important things that can win him the fight?
On Saturday we will also see two HW prospects stepping up. Filip Hrgovic (9-0, 7 KO) fights on the undercard in Saudi Arabia against Eric Molina and in Canada we have Arslanbek Makhmudov (9-0, 9 KO) facing Sam Peter (or what's left of him). What's your take on those guys? Hrgovic is being touted as a hybrid between Wlad & Vitali. Makhmudov looks raw at times, but he has some scary power (he was the first guy to stop Avery Gibson and Jonnie Rice) & decent chin. Can you give a list of TOP 5 HW prospects in your opinion?
Best wishes from Poland!
Bread’s Response: I think this fight really depends on which fight Joshua fights. I didn’t speak on it directly but here it is.
Joshua needs to understand that fighting TALL will get him kod again. He becomes a big target. He needs to spread his lets a little, get down in his stance, extend his arms and fight LONG. People keep repeating the same dam thing and it’s frustrating. Joshua doesn’t get along with Lennox Lewis but Lewis could teach him how to fight LONG. Lewis did it perfectly vs David Tua. Joshua is infatuated with his punch variety. He loves his hooks and uppercuts and both are lethal. The issue is he gives Ruiz more of a chance when he pulls them out. A jab, a feint, and a right hand will be more beneficial. He may not get the ko but he will get the win. Last but not least he has to hold his ground. He needs to TAKE the center of the ring and hold it. Andy made him move around the outskirts of the ring. When I saw that, I knew Andy had something.
Ruiz needs to do what he did last time. Inch forward behind a threatening presence and jab. Force Joshua into violent exchanges and be a more violent man.
I don’t know who will win. I don’t like that Ruiz came in so heavy although that could be a ploy. He may have loaded his pants or hat. I don’t like AJ getting so skinny. I thought his muscles were too bulky but he looks different. Often times I see fighters lose their punch resistance when they lose that type of muscle. This is a weird fight to analyze.
I have a couple of quick questions, how would a prime Mike Tyson have fared against Deontay Wilder? Secondly, could you elaborate on a fighter being “scared” to fight another. I know we speak of a fighter “ducking” another fighter, which appears to be more business related than being afraid. Does being afraid to fight another exist? Your perspective would be appreciated.
Bread’s Response: I think a prime Tyson is bad style match up for Wilder. Wilder has a leaky defense early and he waits on big shots. Tyson has a rapid slip and slide game and he would blitz Wilder. I also don’t know if Wilder is strong enough to tie Tyson up consistently. I say Tyson. Wilder punches in a 1-2 fashion. Tyson punches in a rapid combo of long, mid and short range shots. After Wilder’s 1-2, Tyson would be all over Wilder. Tyson actually has superior boxing ability over Wilder. Interesting style clash.
I think there are fighters who are scared of each other. Sure. Just because you will fight one guy doesn’t mean you will fight another. Fighters are human. Some fighters get scared and they still fight but they know how to fuel the fear. Fighters go through all types of emotions. It’s not always how you feel, it’s what you do.
Muhammad Ali talked about how he thought about quitting vs Joe Frazier. Ali is recognized for having one of the biggest hearts ever. He didn’t quit but he thought about it.
The same goes with fear of another fighter. Some fighters fear other fighters some don’t. Everyone is wired differently. But some will still go through with fights, while others will make excuses and not fight. We can’t confine them into one category. All are different.
Bruce Seldon was scared of Mike Tyson. Floyd Patterson was scared of Sonny Liston. They still went through with the fights but you can see they were afraid. Again boxers are human so we have to understand that emotions may vary.
Breadman, you are the only one who consistently calls or breaks down the sport, its eras and fighters with clear objectivity and insight. I especially appreciated your debunking of the notion Marvelous Marvin Hagler ducked or avoided Mike "The Bodysnatcher" McCallum back in the day. I also enjoy your take on fantasy match-ups. They often give me something new to ponder. As such, here are a few that I would appreciate your views on:
1981 Gerry Cooney vs 1971 Joe Frazier
1955 Rocky Marciano vs 1971 Joe Frazier
1999-00 Lennox Lewis vs 1978-82 Larry Holmes
1992 Riddick Bowe vs 2003 Vitali Klitschko of the Lewis fight
1984 Juan Domingo Roldan vs 1986 John Mugabi @160
1988 Michael Nunn vs 2015 GGG
2001 Bernard Hopkins vs 1987 Ray Leonard
1992 Terrible Terry Norris vs June 1981 Ray Leonard @154
1999 Oscar De La Hoya vs Ray Leonard Sept 1981 @147
1983 Michael Spinks vs 1999 Roy Jones JR @ 175
Breadman, THANK YOU in advance....I look forward to your picks
Bread’s Response: Frazier over Cooney by violent mid round ko.
Frazier SD over Marciano but I’m not sure.
Lewis and Holmes would have to fight a few times. Best night hmmm, Maybe Holmes by SD.
Bowe vs Vitali another great fight. I say Bowe by decision.
Roldan vs Mugabi is a shootout. I have a soft sport for the beast. I say Mugabi by ko.
Nunn vs GGG is tough to call. 3 fight series.
Hopkins vs Leonard another tough fight. Huge size advantage for Hopkins. But for that one night in 1987 Leonard was a great middleweight. I say Hopkins most likely because I know more about him at 160.
Leonard would decapitate Norris in his prime. Literally.
Leonard would outbox Oscar.
I would take Spinks over Jones. Patient boxers with power sort of made Jones hesitant. Tarver, Harding and Hopkins fights were no coincidence. Jones would have a world of problems with Spinks’s jab and power. Spinks also had a fast hands would have a nice height and reach advantage.
I had a question regarding Wilder. As good as his power is I am equally if not more impressed with his chin. He’s pretty much the smaller man by a wide margin yet I rarely see him get hurt. However, I was wondering what was the reasoning. I say that because he rarely gets hit cleanly so I am not sure if his chin has been tested. He also doesn’t strike me as a defensive wizard though. Is it as simple as boxers just so cautious of his power that they don’t commit to their punches therefore making it look like he has a great defense/chin. If you could provide some insight on his chin and defense and whether fighters are just overly cautious.
Bread’s Response: Wilder has a solid set of whiskers. That’s for sure. It goes against some theories that tall slender fighter don’t have good chins. But Wilder refutes that. He has a good chin. He simply can take his opponents punches better than they can take his.
His defense is serviceable. It’s not bad and it’s not great. Fury and Ortiz weren’t cautious they put hands on Wilder. He just took the shots.
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