By Stephen "Breadman" Edwards
The Daily Bread Mailbag returns with Stephen "Breadman" Edwards tackling topics such as the World Boxing Super Series, Terence Crawford, Vasiliy Lomachenko, Floyd Mayweather, Manny Pacquiao, VADA testing and others.
We all generally agree that WBSS is an amazing concept and it will be great for boxing if it happened in every weight class. If it were to happen in every weight class and assuming that the top 8 as per Ring magazine in each weight class were to participate in the tournament, who would you bet to win in each weight class from bantamweight to heavyweight.
My list goes like this - Heavyweight - Fury, Cruiserweight - Breadis (Usyk at heavyweight now), Light Heavyweight - slightest edge to Gvozdyk, Super Middleweight - Callum Smith, Middleweight - Canelo, Light Middleweight - Julian, Welterweight - slightest edge to Crawford, Light Welterweight - we will find out soon enough but I give a slight edge to Prograis, Lightweight - Loma, Super Featherweight - Miguel, Featherweight - No clue, Super Bantamweight - Roman and Bantamweight - Inoue.
What about you?
Bread’s Response: I love your list of winners…..
Heavyweight- Wilder or Fury flip a coin..
Not sure about Cruiser, Dorticos has a real shot.
Light heavy that’s another tough one. It’s a coin flip. 3 undefeated champions and 1 HOF.
Super Middle I don’t know about that one either. 4 undefeated stand outs I can’t call it.
Middleweight is also tough. Canelo is the most accomplished but Andrade and Charlo present real challenges.
Welterweight I have no idea who wins Crawford vs Spence.
Junior Welter….Prograis, Ramirez and Taylor all about even in my opinion.
Loma at lightweight but watch out for Devin Haney.
Super featherweight Tank or Farmer.
Featherweight no clue.
Super Bantam weight no clue.
Bantamweight the Monster!
Good morning Mr. Edwards,
I wanted to check in with you regarding your opinion on the different types of boxing intelligence. In my years following the sport, I've seen at least two classes of in-the-ring-intelligence. I'm sure there are more, and Floyd Mayweather Jr certainly represents a third, but I wanted your expert opinion before I set too deep in my own observations.
I think Bud Crawford and Vasyl Lomachenko (who happen to be the clear two best active fighters on earth) represent the varieties well. I don't believe either is better than the other and I think a good trainer would have to communicate with his fighter in a way that would optimize the type of intelligence he (or she) has.
Loma is a puzzle-solver who has a ridiculously fast ability to process and analyze what he sees in his opponent and exploit weaknesses and deficiencies. I think Ray Leonard had this type of in-the-ring intelligence and could clearly out-think his opponent in most cases and come up with an answer to just about any problem he faced. Bernard Hopkins is another fighter who I believe had a great deal of these smarts.
Bud, on the other hand, has an instinctual intelligence that is harder to describe but easier to observe. Bud just understands fighting in his bones. He does not need to process or analyze what his opponent is doing to "understand" how to oppose and combat it. I believe this is the type of boxing intelligence that was much more common before the outset of modern training techniques and the ability to analyze video of an opponent. I think Roberto Duran and Manny Pacquiao had/have this type of intelligence.
If I look at Mayweather's ring IQ, he was less concerned with what his opponent would do. (This may have been because Floyd was supremely confident that he could neutralize whatever he faced.) Mayweather understood, perhaps as well as anyone ever to lace up a pair of gloves, what the judges would see and how they would score. Mayweather just wanted to bank rounds and ensure that he won the fight if it went to the cards. He'd take any opening his opponent gave, but he wasn't looking for it.
Can you think of other types of boxing intelligence that I've missed? I know Muhammad Ali was an impressively brilliant fighter whose boxing IQ may not be well-characterized by the categories I've mentioned. Do you have better historical or current examples of the types of boxing IQ you believe there are? Thanks for any answer you've got. Respect to you for all your hard work and knowledge.
Bread’s Response: This is one of the best comments I have ever received. Ever….
Where do I start… It definitely takes a good eye and good trainer to understand difference in IQ. Simple minded trainers clump and label a fighter’s IQ with his style. I hate when an attacking fighter is thought to have poor IQ or no IQ because they attack. Just like I hate when a boxer or fighter who moves is associated with high IQ or being slick because they are moving away from the action.
I agree on Loma and Crawford. Loma is not only a puzzle solver he’s a puzzle creator. His mind has been trained to be so fast that he actually creates a puzzle, then he forces his opponent’s to try to solve it. Then he processes their answer to the puzzle faster than they do.
Crawford has that instinctual processing. During his fights something just happens where his opponents are not effective anymore and he is. It’s subtle but brilliant. It’s noticeable because he’s winning the rounds clean and the opponent starts to get discouraged.
I disagree on Leonard. I think he processed like Crawford it’s just that his style is flashier and more impromptu. One of Leonard’s greatest adjustments in his career was the Benitez fight. Leonard was trying knock Benitez out with an overhand right. He must have missed that shot 50 times in the fight. Benitez kept rolling under it. Benitez saw everything coming from over the top. Leonard then started throwing an UP JAB. It’s the only shot Benitez didn’t have his radar on it was coming from underneath. He actually scored a knockdown with it and scored his most effective rallies because of it. I think this was an instinctive adjustment like Crawford makes.
Ali’s I can’t describe and I don’t think it can ever be taught. It’s savant like. I don’t believe Ali could teach it. It’s a gift from god, it’s meant to be displayed not taught.
I assess different IQs according to if they can be taught or explained after. I think Leonard and Crawford can explain what they did after not always before. Pacquiao and Duran have those same IQs that Leonard and Crawford have they just fight in a different style. Pacquioa’s IQ is off the charts and he never gets credit for it. How he contorts his body defensively and because of his short reach the solutions he has to a JAB is remarkable.
I agree again I think Mayweather’s IQ is unique. He understands what the judges want. He has an IQ of control. He always gives the impression he’s in control. Even when hurt or buzzed he never gives up the energy of control. Because of this he gets the majority of the favorable opinion in the scoring of rounds. Canelo has developed it. People criticize Floyd’s punch output but his gift he’s minimizing the opponent’s chances to do anything to him. He exchanges less and he gets the better of most of the exchanges. Therefore it’s more noticeable what he’s doing.
In my opinion Floyd has only lost control twice in his career for more than 2 rounds in a row. Maidana 1 and Castillo 1. That’s remarkable for a fighter who goes 12 rounds in just about every championship fight and has over 300 rounds boxed. It makes Floyd one of the most unique fighters ever.
I believe Floyd can explain some of the things he does and some he can’t. You would have to be really smart to emulate him. In layman’s terms if Floyd played rock, paper, scissors. 90% of the time he would throw the right symbol.
I also agree with you. One IQ is not better than the other. Success is predicated on when it is applied.
Your COMMENT may have been the BEST I have ever received in over 10 years of doing a mailbag. I am in awe of your boxing EYE. Thank you.
What’s up bread man, gotta question... so I’ve seen Shakur Stevenson calling out Tank and ik that’s a fight that won’t be made anytime soon for obvious reasons but my father sold me on the idea that shakur has all the tools to beat him, that’s until Tank reminded me just how much power he possesses last Saturday night. How competitive could you see that match up being if it were happen before Tank grows out of 130? And if you could maybe rank the most impressive prospects ?
Bread’s Response: I didn’t know Shakur Stevenson called out Tank Davis. Wow. I don’t look at the blogs or boxing gossip so I didn’t know that was a thing.
As for the fight man what a fight. I think Stevenson may be the best prospect in boxing along with Devin Haney and Jaron Ennis. Stevenson has a sense of distance and IQ that I believe will translate at the top level. People will call me crazy but if he were to face ANY featherweight in the world right now I wouldn’t pick against him. I’m not saying I would pick him to beat everyone at 126 but I’m saying I can’t pick anyone to beat him and he’s just 12-0.
Tank Davis is the real deal I believe but in a different way. He’s a dynamic offensive fighter. Dynamic offensive fighters and big punches seem to be more impressive until they reach the top level. For example it’s why Mike Tyson was more highly regarded than Evander Holyfield up until they fought. Felix Trinidad was more highly regarded than Bernard Hopkins up and until they fought. Shane Mosley was more highly regarded than Vernon Forest up and until they fought. The eyes and senses appreciate punchers more.
I have no idea what will happen if they fight. But right now I think Davis is a mix of Zab Judah and Mike Tyson. I’m high on Davis and I think he’s one of the top 5 punchers in boxing. I also think he’s one of the best 25-30 fighters in the world. But I am curious as to how he adjust once he can’t score a ko. He’s being matched in a way where his gifts are on display. Davis’s most recent opponent I believe could have answered some questions for us if the fight wasn’t stopped in the 2nd round.
I liken Shakur Stevenson to a hybrid Floyd Mayweather and Chris Byrd. Stevenson looks like the future P4P king but his out of ring behavior does concern me. Let’s see what happens.
Top Prospects. Shakur Stevenson, Jaron Ennis, Devin Haney, Teofimo Lopez, Vergil Ortiz, Daniel Duboise, Tony Yoka and Stephen “Scooter” Fulton.
Am I wrong in saying I see boxing style/desire similarities with Julian Williams and Jose Ramirez? Specifically, tenacious work to the body and overall punching conviction. Also, I'm not familiar with Regis Prograis, very curious as to how do you see future bout results with Taylor scheduled in October and possibly Ramirez afterwards? Light WW 140# division appears aggressively competitive with very little promoter conflicts to make desirable, fan friendly match ups.
Thank you for your insights!
Bread’s Response: Often times fighters of different races are not compared but I like this comparison. I see it. I Ramirez and Jrock are very similar. The difference is Jrock likes to fight from the outside more and he’s more reliant on a jab and right hand. Where are Ramirez is more of an attacker. But when Jrock is in attack mode they look similar.
I think Regis Prograis is the real deal but so is Josh Taylor. This fight will have a shot at FOY. I don’t have a winner yet.
I don’t consider Manny Pacquiao an 8 division champion. He fought Margarito at 150lbs. Margarito was weight drained and it wasn’t a level playing field. No fighter has benefited so much from catchweights.
Bread’s Response: I think you don’t know much about boxing and you should do your research. Margarito was a big welterweight who was never a monster at 154lbs. He lost to Daniel Santos at 154 when experimenting with the weight. So against Manny he got to fight at 150 and rehydrate as high as he wanted to. It was a real fight in my opinion and real accomplishment. I actually think the weight favored Margarito. He was 17lbs heavier than Manny on fight night and he got to fight him with 8oz gloves. I bet you didn’t know that. In fights over 147lbs the standard is usually 10 oz gloves…
I’m only going to answer this to make you look foolish. Fighters have always used catchweight in big fights to come to agreements. But again during Manny’s rise to ATG status it became cool to detract from his accomplishments. But I will show you how the smaller fighter and bigger fighter have benefited from catchweights in big fights.
Bernard Hopkins was as good at middleweight as we have ever seen a fighter. But he was a fighter who had a freakish discipline to stay close to weight. Look at what he weighed for his fight with Oscar de La Hoya. 156lbs!!!! You would have to be a fool to think that wasn’t a quiet agreement for Hopkins to come in at that weight. He turned pro at 175. But because of his discipline he was able to come in low and be fine.
Then on contrast when he fought Winky Wright a career long junior middleweight and Kelly Pavlik the reigning middleweight champion, Hopkins fought them both at 170lbs. I bet you don’t have much to say smart guy.
Next let’s go to the GREAT Roy Jones. He fought Felix Trinidad a smaller man at 170lbs. Who got the advantage in that one? Did Trinidad shrink him down or did Jones bait him up.
Next let’s go to Terry Norris. A career long junior middleweight fought Meldrick Taylor at 149lbs for his title. Who did it benefit? Norris won by brutal ko.
Canelo Alvarez fought Amir Khan at 155 for the middleweight title. Who did the weight benefit? If Khan had won would it have been because he shrunk the bigger Canelo down. Or how about when Canelo fought Chavez Jr. at 164….
Let’s go to Miguel Cotto. He fought Sergio Martinez at a catvchweight of 159lbs for a title at 160lbs just to show he was the A side. Then after he won the title he fought Daniel Geale at 157 and Canelo at 155. Are you back tracking yet?
Next up is Floyd Mayweather. He fought Marquez at 144lbs and didn’t make the catchweight for the smaller guy. Then he fought Canelo at 152 against the bigger guy. Did those wins count?
You guys need to be quiet and stop writing me stuff that I can easily dissect and destroy. Research, gain knowledge and learn to be objective.
In your July 27 Mailbag you made the comment that the old trainers thought lifting weights made you slower and they believed in running 5 miles a day. Also that one of the best workouts for a fighter is an extended track and field workout that sprinters do.
Can you elaborate a little more? What does that sprinters' workout consist of? And how do you feel about weight training for fighters vs. strictly calisthenics?
"ShoulderRoll" from the BoxingScene forums
Bread’s Response: Old timers for the most part didn’t believe in weight lifting. 99% of the fighters before the 1980s didn’t mess with weights. They believed in boxing workouts, body weight exercises and jogging miles. They didn’t think it was good for a fighter to get 20lbs over weight then have to cut down. They thought weight lifting made you bulky and slow and caused you to gain too much weight. We now know that a fighter can cut 25lbs and although dangerous can still be effective.
A sprinters workout consist of different distance all out sprints after a short break then exploding again. There is a large majority of fitness experts who believe this is more productive than running long miles.
I feel as though weight training and calisthenics are both helpful. You have to do more calisthenics to get the same results as weight training. I think it depends on what your goals are.
I’m very open minded. I believe some of the old school stuff works. I believe some of the new stuff works. I think to ignore new nutrition and recovery a fighter would be foolish. I think it would be dismissive to ignore why Henry Armstrong could fight 15 rounds without breathing hard.
When dealing with weights a fighter has to be very careful he keeps his flexibility and cardio up or it will hurt him more than help him. Those extra muscles will require extra maintenance.
What up B, As Salamm Alaikum! I’m gone get straight to it bro. They can’t be fair and objective with anything concerning Floyd and that is why he never gets a fair assessment! Floyd is even hated for being undefeated! Think about that Floyd is hated so so much on some Personality Biase BS, that the media and fans say dumb crap like being undefeated isn’t that special. Can’t make this crap up! Being undefeated over twenty years half your fights against fellow champions isn’t that special, meanwhile winning is the number one goal of all fighters!...NO ONE TRAINS AND FIGHTS TO LOSE...NO ONE! P4P there is no question who had the greater skills (Floyd). And FK what they say the man didn’t just win he made it look easy outclassed just about everyone he fought INCLUDING PACQUIAO! So when it comes down to the bare bones of similar competition Floyd beat them all and in a fashion where he took lil to no damage, the deal breaker is the fight between them and Floyd outclassed Pac. Every Pac win after that only enhances how special Floyd is!
Personality worship is killing it B! Pac is soft spoken but just as cockey B! He has on numerous occasions said he’s going to whoop or KO his opponent but he gets a pass because he says it softly with poor English! And Roach he is just as much of a trash talker as oh...Mayweather SR, and that’s with Parkinson’s Roach manages to talk major trash! The Urban American Black Fighter even in his own homeland just isn’t truly loved! Some say it’s because of Trash talk yet they love Fury, McGregor, Rousey, And few others for it when they did or do it!
B, before I let you go everybody that’s obsessed with this sport should know you da man and your knowledge and insight are unmatched (extraordinary)! But please elaborate Sir! How is it if the main goal of every fighter entering a fight is to win, winning not so important? Yes a fighter can be very great even with multiple loses such as Pac, Robinson, and Ali to name a few! But B, as a trainer, analyst, and historian is winning and being undefeated fighting on the elite level really not that special!...COME ON CHIP ME OFF SOME OF THAT DOPE WISDOM MAYNE!
Bread’s Response: You make some great points about being undefeated. It’s most likely the original goal of all top fighters. And unless you’re throwing a fight or you’re a journeyman who is there to collect a payday, the goal is to win.
I respect the heck out of Floyd Mayweather for his 50-0 record and almost 30 championship fights. I respect him winning titles from 130-154. That’s a rare and real 5 division champion in an era where slightly above average fighters have won 3 and 4 titles. Floyd Mayweather is one of 20 greatest and best fighters to ever live.
Here is what I think happened with the undefeated thing. Some was good and some was bad. I don’t know if I’m right but this is just my perspective.
In the last 10 years if a fighter lost he got treated differently. The networks treated him different. His pay decreased. He had to fight tougher fights to get back. And when people looked around it was one top fighter who boasted about never losing. That fighter was Floyd Mayweather. Some believe he’s the reason for the new trend….
Some insiders feel as though he made fighters overall less willing to take tough fights because they knew they would be treated different if they didn’t win. Social media joined the bashing party and it took a trend.
Ironically up until the emergence of Tank Davis, Badou Jack was Floyd’s most accomplished fighter and he had a bad loss early in his career and a few draws. Floyd did a heck of a job promoting him. So Floyd knows a loss doesn’t determine a career.
Ok now back to the undefeated thing. The internet expert started equating Floyd’s record with being the best fighter ever. So the real expert pointed out that many other fighters retired undefeated and they weren’t considered the best ever. In fact Andre Ward, Joe Calzaghe and Ricardo Lopez are all recent greats who aren’t considered close to being the best ever.
Then the internet experts came back and said well Floyd fought better competition than Ward, Calzaghe and Lopez. Then the real expert pointed out that his matchmaking for his final dozen fights was handpicked fighters. Then an all out war broke out.
Personally if Floyd would not have gotten the decisions vs Maidana and Castillo I wouldn’t have viewed him any different. He went right back in rematches and took care of business. No one is A+ every time out.
Throughout my life most of the P4P #1 guys had a loss or two. Starting with Duran, he had that non title loss to Esteban DeJesus after he won the title. Then Ray Leonard had that one loss to Duran after he won the title. Then Marvin Hagler had 2 losses and 2 draws for his entire middleweight reign. Then Pernell Whitaker had that 1 dubious loss in his 1st title fight. Then Roy Jones had that 1 DQ loss to Montel Griffin. Then Manny Pacquioa had 2 and 3 losses and 2 draws throughout his prime run. That’s 40 years of boxing. Only Floyd Mayweather and Julio Cesar Chavez had perfect records for a prolonged period of time. The other greats had a loss or two. It was really no biggie until Floyd made it a biggie. He irritated some people and some people went too far.
Honestly boxing has too many people who don’t know much about boxing who have platforms and opinions. I don’t follow or interact with anyone who says stupid senseless things. I don’t read the bottom of my comments section of my mailbag. I cleanse my energy of arrogant ignorance. But this debate took on a negative light that I always tried to stay away from.
All in all I think that is what happened and it just went haywire. Besides that, the 49-0 was a heavyweight thing. Rocky Marciano’s record. Many other fighters went undefeated for longer periods of time and more fights. But Floyd is a marketing genius. He knew that but he also knew that it would aggravate people that he bragged about being undefeated. It really ticked them off when he fought opponents they knew he would beat. It’s why GGGs name kept coming up. In 2014-16 GGG was just too big and powerful to fight Floyd. But they wanted him to lose. I personally never cared.
The best 3 fighters of my lifetime are Roberto Duran, Ray Leonard and Roy Jones. They all had losses in their primes. It was no big deal to me.
Bread - Love the mailbag every weekend, thanks for the insight.
I wanted to touch on how you use the willingness of a fighter to accept VADA testing (and passing) as the litmus test for a fighter being clean or not. Drug testing, even VADA, is an IQ test more than anything. You have to be an idiot to fail them (see here for a longer explanation from a PED expert: https://www.t-nation.com/powerful-words/crossfit-and-steroids
CrossFit and Steroids | T Nation
The author has worked with bodybuilders, elite athletes, CrossFitters and regular people from all walks of life. He helps them build muscle and perform better, with and without the use of performance enhancing drugs. When needed, the author also helps athletes beat drug tests. CrossFit as a sport is ...
Essentially, passing a PED test doesn’t mean a fighter, or any athlete, is clean. It just means they passed the test. Remember, Lance Armstrong was the most tested athlete in the world, by WADA, and he never failed a test.
Now, this isn’t to say any fighter is dirty or not, and certainly accepting/demanding on VADA helps build the case that a fighter is clean. However, just submitting to VADA and passing the test doesn’t mean a fighter is clean. In truth, we’ll never really know who is clean and who isn’t.
Keep up the good work with JRock. As a Philly guy (now living in LA) I’d love to see him defend the belt in Philly. IMO B-Hop missed a chance to really put a final point on his career by having one of his later title defenses at home.
Bread’s Response: You are about 70% correct. VADA can be beat. But it’s more difficult than you think. If it wasn’t so many fighters wouldn’t get caught. I don’t believe they are all DUMB. I believe they are addicted to the feeling of the PED so they chance it. It’s like having sex without a condom. You know there are STD risk and pregnancy risk. But you like the feeling. You may not want kids. You definitely don’t want an STD but you roll the dice. The addictive trait in human beings is what you’re underestimating.
Where we agree 100% is that there are fighters out here who use PEDS and they take VADA they just haven’t been caught. It’s the reason why when one does get caught I always assume it wasn’t his/her first time using. It was the first time they got caught.
Where we disagree is the hand raisers. The fighters who are cheating but still take VADA don’t raise their hands as often as the 100% clean guys. The cheating fighters take their time with the drug test. They show public acceptance but it’s a reactive thing not a proactive thing. Watch the guys who act nonchalant about VADA. If you don’t ask them to take it they act like they forgot it was available. They’re the cousin who borrows $20 from you and he doesn’t say anything unless you say something.
Hi breadman, love the work.
How is it possible that thurman gets credited for more power punches than pac, yet the bigger, stronger fighter shows more wear and tear receiving 89 less power punches from smaller opponent? How accurate is compubox? Is it normal for a fighter to receive more punches yet have less attrition effect?
Thanks heaps mate.
Vince from Oz
Bread’s Response: Compubox is never going to be 100%. Because a human being is the one pushing the buttons. I have seen some compubox stats that I felt were on the money and I have seen some that were completely bias.
I didn’t read the compubox for Pacquiao vs Thurman. But what I will say is total compubox can be misleading here is how. A fighter may only outland his opponent by a small number in the rounds he won. Say that fighter wins 7 rounds and he lands cleaner shots but not by a big margin. Then the opponents outlands him by a bigger number in the 5 rounds he won.
Overall the fighter who won the fight may not land a higher total, but he can still win the fight. You also have to realized that a professional fight is not scored on how many punches are landed although it’s a solid indicator it’s not the only one.
Yes a fighter can be hit more and show less effect. It all depends on who is doing the punching. Pacquiao uses Reyes gloves and he has hard hands. It’s a soft leather and he turns and snaps his punches as they land. Thurman uses Rival gloves. I’m not saying which are better but they are different. Pac is known for breaking up faces because he pronates his punches with the soft leather. The leather sticks to the skin causing bruises and cuts. Most of Pac’s opponent’s look a mess.
I just wanted to add some more juice to the full and comprehensive breakdown gave to Manny Pacquiaos amazing career.
It's fair to suggest that Manny has accomplished more than Floyd overall but OVERALL Floyd is the superior fighter. Boxing is a wonderful game.
There's a 14-fight sequence in Pacquiao's career and it's an unbeaten sequence. There isn't a flaw in it. Every fighter in it either had a world title or would go on to win a world title. The worst fighter would be someone like Jorge Solis, who was unbeaten in 36 and would go on to win a world title.
Now add Adrien Broner and Keith Thurman to that list.
The sequence goes Erik Morales, Oscar Larios, Erik Morales again, Jorge Solis, Marco Antonio Barrera, Juan Manuel Marquez, David Diaz, Oscar de la Hoya, Ricky Hatton, Miguel Cotto, Joshua Clottey, Antonio Margarito, Shane Mosley and Juan Manuel Marquez again.
It goes from 128lbs up to 150lbs. That's 14 fights, six years and around 10 champions. That uninterrupted consecutive sequence could match up or even surpass any sequence of any period in boxing history.
If the qualification is five years and 10 fights, that sequence is going to be unbeaten in history.
Now add Adrien Broner and Keith Thurman to that list.
There are probably over 30 history iconic record breaking milestones in Pacs legacy if we were to put them on a shopping list. And what if he goes on to fight for a ANOTHER 5 years. It's feasible that even if he lost to the likes of Crawford and Spence now he could STILL have enough juice to beat them down the line. If he faces Khan as rumour has it he beats him in my book. He beats Danny Garcia. Those are the macthes he should take. Let Spence and Porter beat each other up and fight the winner or the loser. We are potentially looking at higher sequence of champions of high calibre being beaten by Pac. That's not only cleaning up divisons. That's generational genocide. Unheard of.
Pacs career is LOADED with legendary ATG fighters vs Legends...epic battles. Highlight reel knockouts. He's on his way to top 10 ATG and if he fights beyond 42 and 43 years of age which is conceivable and wins more titles then you have to reassess his ATG status.
Bread’s Response: I think you mean the streak of from Hector Valesquez to Juan Manuel Marquez 3. It was from 2005-11, 15 fights. And you’re correct he was remarkable. Only Marquez challenged him.
Manny is a unique fighter. Similar to Armstrong. Where as they may not win every head to head hypothetical match ups because of their lack of size and weight they fought. But their accomplishments, longevity and big wins are just breathtaking. I don’t want to overrate or underrate Pac until he finally hangs them up. But all I know is that Keith Thurman win is one of the best wins an aging, 40 year old ex fly weight can possibly have. I’m telling you guys, I don’t think you realize how good of a WIN that was. Thurman beat Danny Garcia and Shawn Porter two really good fighters who are consensus top 5 in the division and Garcia has an outside shot at the HOF. Thurman’s scalp will be heavy with the historians. If Pac somehow beats Crawford or Spence which I don’t think he can, that would put him…….let me shut up before some of you guys get upset that I’m being too fair.
What’s good Bro Bread! Hope all is well with you and the family. Hopefully J-Rock has put his work boots back on because the hunter has become the hunted. He has a bull eye on his back and although I think it is a bad idea it seems like Hurd is wanting the immediate rematch.
When should the standing 8 count be used? I ask this because watching the Davis fight the other day, I thought that it should have been used. Nunes was getting hit with some big shots and in my opinion the ropes held him up, but he still seemed cognizant enough to look to hold or try to smother Davis, but the ref jumped in and waived it off. I won’t question if it was a good or bad stoppage because Nunes didn’t seem to protest it, but I don’t see refs using it much.
I thought that Manny would win the Thurman fight before the fight happened, but people seem to look past the punishment Pac was taking. I thought Thurman begin walking Pac down in maybe the 6th/7th-10th round until he got hit with the big body shot. The body shot I think could have very well saved Pac’s big night. I know people will call me crazy for saying that, but I am just telling you what my eyes saw. Also, can you think of another champ in history that is so cleanly hurt to the body and shows it every time? I notice the shot (counter uppercut) that JRock was knocked out with other fighters have tried but as a team you all cleaned up that defensive mistake. Why hasn’t team Thurman found a way to clean this up? The guy literally pulled his mouthpiece out to suck in some air. WOW!! People and I think I have heard you say that Pac does not turn down fights and he will fight anyone but mark my words Pac will not go in with Spence and at his age I don’t blame him. I think Thurman took a lot out of Pac that night. I’m curious to see him in his next fight.
Can you give us a breakdown on the Spence/Porter and Wilder/Ortiz II?
Bread’s Response: In light of the recent tragedies in boxing we will see some early stoppages until that energy moves away.
I don’t like the standing 8 count in pro boxing. If a fighter is hurt and he remains upright then by stopping the action you give the fighter a chance to recover. The fighter has to earn his chance to recover by clinching, moving away or taking a knee. If the ropes is holding him up then that is a knockdown not a standing 8 count. Big difference. I thought Davis’s opponent was trying to hold also but I won’t make a big deal about it. This has been a rough few weeks for the boxing world and Tank is a brutal finisher.
Thurman was making a serious push and Manny was waiting on his 2nd wind. I definitely saw it. But Manny came through with a clutch shot that great fighters come through with to change the momentum of the fight. Visible hurting a fighter can have a carry over affect in other rounds and Manny does it often in his distance fights.
I don’t know why body shots seem to bother Thurman. I don’t know if the media is making too big a deal of it. Or if he can’t take body shots. We have seen him get hurt extremely bad by 2 body shots. Luis Collazo and Manny Pacquiao. Body times on the liver side which is the worst place to get hit.
I just don’t know if that is enough. He never went down but he took his mouth piece out and was laboring visibly. As I type I’m trying to think of any other times he’s been hurt by body shots. No one has an iron liver.
Only Thurman knows how he feels. Thurman doesn’t have particularly long arms. Maybe his elbow doesn’t reach his cup on defense. He could learn a thing or two from Winky Wright about that.
Maybe anatomically his liver is exposed. Everyone is built different. I don’t know. If that is the case it’s nothing he can do. Maybe he needs more core work. I don’t know.
I don’t think it’s that big of a deal personally because he has never been stopped by a body shot. As of right now he may need to prepare for body shots more defensively. Thurman is a little squared up on the inside making his liver easier to get to. Thurman uses his legs as his defense mostly and now would be a good time to evolve as a fighter and work on his inside defense.
I was impressed with Thurman vs Pacquiao although he lost. He fought a very good fight vs an ATG fighter who had a great night. Thurman showed, skill, heart and he showed determination in his mid round push. I would love for Thurman to be a fighters outside of ring also. Don’t run and hide and take off another year. Get right back in there, work on his game and fight another tough opponent. If Thurman does that he will get better. Thurman may have cost himself that fight because of his tepid fight schedule. A fighter needs to fight. Not sit around wait on opportunities. Go out and create opportunities.
Because Errol Spence had so much success with his jab and boxing vs Mikey Garcia I think we will see that in his game more often at the top level. Spence will have that as his trump card. Especially if he can’t stop a guy. I expect a rough fight. I expect Porter to win a few rounds and make it really hard for Spence. I think Porter will show all facets of his game. Boxing in and out and brawling and smothering on the inside.
I expect Spence to move forward more though. I think Spence will win the fight because his pace is more even than Porter’s. Because Porter has to expend so much energy to be effective, he labors a little during fights. Spence has an even brutal pace. I think that will be the difference in the fight. I like Spence by decision 116-112 and 117-111.
I think Wilder vs Ortiz will be similar to the first fight. Ortiz is the sharper better boxer but that doesn’t mean he can beat Wilder. Wilder has a gift and I know exactly what it is. Fighters fall asleep and lose awareness. You can remind them all you want but in real time they lose train of thought. Wilder does not try to ko you with a hook, or an upper cut or anything else except a step in 1-2. That’s it.
He’s very similar to the way Adonis Stevenson used to be. After a referee break his opponents lose track of his danger. He knows this and he’s ready to step in big with a right hand at all times. His thought process is clear. That’s why he’s so quick with the shot. He knows only he has to catch you off guard for a half of a second. He has 36 minutes to catch you. Mathematically Wilder has the advantage. If Ortiz can stay aware he has a chance but I think at some point Wilder will catch him. It’s just Wilder’s history.
I just saw your tweet about Davis being the most violent puncher in boxing next to Wilder. Of course, I will add Inoue as well, as he may be the BEST fighter in the sport right now. But that is one hell of a class to be in for Davis. And let's be honest, aside from one fight against Fonseca where he had a terrible camp and missed weight, he's been pure money in the ring. From the past 130 pounders, I can't recall a bigger puncher off the top of my head than Davis, can you? Some will say Pacquiao, but at 130 he wasn't THAT big of a puncher. Was a very good puncher, but not like Davis. Will his power be able to travel like Pacquiao's up the weight classes? To an certain extent? I believe so, since he is just a vicious explosive puncher.
Now, that brings me to my question of how exactly do you navigate his career? Because the eye test shows he has a very good jab, could fight on the inside or outside and is one of the best punchers in the game. So do you try to make a fight with Lomachenko if possible? Do you go after all the champs at 130 and be confident that Davis comes through? I think in terms of the latter, absolutely. There isn't a champion at 130 that Davis wouldn't be a good sized favorite against. Doesn't mean he runs through Berchelt or Farmer or Herring, but he would still be the favorite. And you may disagree, but I think he competes with Loamchenko RIGHT NOW. Does he beat Lomachenko? I'm not sure, but that is far from a walk in the park for Lomachenko and it would be very competitive. And even if Davis loses, I don't see him getting dominated or anything and it will only make him better going forward, also Canelo when he fought Floyd. What do you think?
Bread’s Response: I believe Monster Inoue is the best puncher in boxing. His accuracy, speed, timing and punch variety are as good as you will ever see. But when I say violent, I mean something different. Look at how Mike Tyson would finish his opponents in the 80s. Or Gerald McClellan in the 90s. That’s violence for you.
When Tank Davis and Deontay Wilder start opening up it literally looks like something I’ve seen in the hood my whole life. It’s utterly brutal and I mean it in a good way.
I think Pac was a huge puncher at 130lbs. He was only there for 8 fights. 4 of them were vs ATG in Morales, Marquez and Barrera. Pac either dropped, stopped or dominated everyone at the weight. Davis is not fighting that level of comp yet if you’re honest.
I think Davis is the goods too but I think he has some maturing to do. I would like to see him vs more styles, and vs fighters who don’t go out as soon as he touches them.
Davis will be allowed to develop through his matchmaking. They’re taking their time with him and whoever you see him fight, you best believe he will have at least a 70% chance to win. No worst than 65%. I believe he will take the same course Adrien Broner took without the jump from 135 to 147. It’s going to be slower and more productive because they now know what NOT to do because of Broner. Davis is powerful but he’s short with short arms. Don’t expect him to weight jump crazy. Look at Tank next to Floyd Mayweather who also started at 130lbs. Floyd has a larger frame and 72 inch arms which are really long for a 5’8” super featherweight.
I think Davis will fight Tevin Farmer or Yuri Gamboa next. I also think PBC has some big names at 126 in Mares, Santa Cruz and Russell that would make good fights. I expect Davis will explore unification fights and the featherweights before he goes up to 135. They want to keep his physicality advantages, he’s a little short for lightweight.
I think he’s competitive with Loma but I wouldn’t pick him to win. But Loma is 31 and you know how this game goes. I would love to see Davis’s matchmaking get a little more risky. We shall see.
Other huge punchers at 130lbs were Arturo Gatti, Diego Corrales, Sandy Saddler, Manny Pacquiao, Julio Cesar Chavez, Azumah Nelson, Oscar De La Hoya, Juan Manuel Marquez and Alexis Arguello. Punch for punch Tank can hang with those guys but I want to see him do it vs Elite competition which is always the best benchmark.
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