By Stephen "Breadman" Edwards
The daily bread mailbag returns with Stephen "Breadman" Edwards discussing more Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Manny Pacquiao, Saul "Canelo" Alvarez, WBA/IBO middleweight champion Gennady "GGG" Golovkin.
Floyd's ability to throw off the opponents game plan was key. I think Roach thought he would shoulder roll a bit but change the defensive tactic to be able to get out of the way for that left hand. Floyd did not do that and that big strategy must have been geared toward that stance. Then Floyd did not walk Manny down even though Floyd Sr wanted him to. Now if the rematch occurs, they will train Manny for how the first fight was but Floyd will walk him down. He's always a step or two ahead. Who gives Floyd problems? Should he fight an easier Floyd bout then retire? I think he fights in September against like Danny Garcia then sets up the rematch with Manny for the big 50th win.
I also truly believe that James Kirkland needs to stop being lazy and go to camp with Ann Wolfe. He must really hate her camps to go with another trainer who was basically unknown. He was aggressive but James has no defense which he never did but that's because his offensive made up for it. Without both, I knew he would lose. Where does he go from here? Do you think he would do better in a rematch with Anna Wolfe in his corner after a few tune up bouts?
Bread’s Response: Floyd understands that he only needs to win 7 rounds clearly. He understands that his opponent and their trainers only have a limited amount of time to figure him out. He understands how to convince the judges he has control of what is going on in the ring. It’s not so much what he does, it’s what he does not allow his opponents to do.
I think Freddie Roach mistakes Floyd being a careful matchmaker for him being scared. Floyd is the ultimate gamer in that ring. When you believe a man is scared of you, complacent habits form. Once a man enters the ring with you, you should never assume he’s afraid. Floyd won this fight before he stepped in the ring with Manny.
Who gives Floyd problems? People are talking about Floyd vs GGG. I’m surprised Floyd Sr. spoke openly about GGG saying Floyd Jr. can beat him. I would favor GGG to beat Floyd. That’s too much in my opinion but I don’t think it will happen. GGG says he can make 154 but he has NEVER made it. He fought at 165lbs as an amateur 10 years ago. As you get older your metabolism slows down. If he could have made 154 he would have made it already. I think the public needs to leave that one alone.
Out of the welterweights…Amir Khan, Kell Brook and Keith Thurman are real threats. You mentioned Danny Garcia. Garcia is actually the most deserving fighter currently as far as accomplishments but he doesn’t seem to want it. He never speaks on it. He could easily trump Amir Khan by saying he knocked him out in 4 rounds. Conclusively.
Khan, Thruman and Brook seem to want the fight. I think Brook is the best all around fighter of the bunch but I’m not sure he can handle Floyd’s speed. Thurman has come back down to earth since last year when he was being made out to be a monster. He’s a big time talent but I think Thurman makes way too many mistakes and he doesn’t use a jab enough to defeat Floyd.
Amir Khan may not be able to beat Thurman and Brook in head to head fights but stylistically I think he presents the most problems to Floyd. Khan has so much range people think he’s 6ft tall but in actuality he’s no more than 5’9. And his hair rises up so that’s a stretch…. But his arms are so long and he’s so fast people think he’s overwhelmingly tall.
I know Khan has had his slip ups, but under Virgil Hunter I think he has a great shot to defeat Floyd. In the last 20 years I can’t think of a handful of guys who punch in combination as good as Khan. Boxers today seem to pot shot more. The way Khan was running them off against Devon Alexander he looked like a video game character.
My biggest question in this fight is will Floyd hurt Khan. Sometimes I assess Floyd’s punching power and I assume it’s underrated because no one ever runs up on him recklessly. Then I reassess it and I observe he rarely scores knockdowns yet alone knockouts. He also does not really bust his opponents up. Drawing blood, closing eyes etc. I do think punching power is overrated but I bring this up because I have never seen Khan lose rounds where he was NOT being hurt. Think about that. So let’s assume the most likely outcome will be a 12 round tactical boxing match. Amir Khan and Floyd Mayweather never lose rounds being outboxed. Some may think the fight would be boring but I would be on the edge of my seat enjoying every minute of it.
James Kirkland in my opinion is done as an elite level fighter. He’s in his 30s now. He gains too much weight in between fights. His legs look stiffer than ever before. Did I mention he was just brutalized to the head and body and concussed? Ann Wolfe would overtrain Kirkland trying to get him back in form. I don’t think he’s lazy. There is no way you can be lazy and train with Wolfe for 15 years. I think that the training he was doing burns you out at a certain point. I love the innovative, barbaric stuff that Wolfe does. But after the knockout Kirkland just suffered I don’t think anyone can bring him back. And if he fights Canelo again he would get brutalized again. Maybe Kirkland goes a little longer but that means he suffers longer.
Wish Pac would’ve hired Gavin for Floyd. Fortune is good but they shoulda not pounded his body so much at the stage in Pac's career. Your insight is awesome.
Bread’s Response: I respect Justin Fortune as a strength coach. He was undefeated with Pacquiao. But you can clearly see that Manny can’t sustain his attacks anymore. He fights in quick, frenetic wind sprints these days although I think he was in the best shape he has been in years for this fight, he can’t beat Mayweather like that unless he clips him with a Hail Mary.
They should have been monitoring Manny’s blood. There was obviously a deficiency somewhere because of the cramps. He was getting shin splints because of the concrete pounding. Don’t run so long and make them more energy efficient. And yes go in the pool. I don’t want to pick Team Pacquiao apart but I have no doubt they loss this fight in camp. When I saw Floyd swimming and recovering in the Nitrogen chamber I knew he would be the fresher fighter.
Maybe Fortune and McMillan can collaborate because unfortunately Manny won’t retire.
What's up Bread? Long time writer as you know, but first time at your new home. First off, what are your thoughts on Broner vs Porter? I don't really understand why it's happening, it honestly seems like a stupid fight to me. There are so many guys at 140 and 147, why can't they each fight somebody in their weight class? Why fight each other at a catch weight? Wasn't Broner supposed to be staying at 140 which actually made sense? And why is a guy like Porter gonna lose extra lbs to fight a guy that brings nothing to the table for him? I really believe it's a lose lose for both guys...
If Broner wins people will say Porter was drained because he's naturally much bigger (didn't he start his career at middleweight or something?), and point out how he lost to Brook and beat a nobody in his last fight. If he loses, he loses. If Porter wins, people will just say well Broner was too small, he was supposed to win. If he loses, he will have a real hard time coming back from that.
I expect Porter to win though because he's just too physical, too strong, I don't think Broner has anything to keep him off of him. Who's your pick and more importantly why do you think this fight is even happening when both guys really have nothing to gain and everything to lose?
Next, what's your opinion on Oscar keeping Canelo away from GGG? It's a fight that everyone would love to see, but I think Oscar believes it's too risky. He said something about how GGG is a middleweight and Canelo has no problem making 154. First of all when is the last time he even made 154? Secondly, Oscar claims it will be a bigger fight and make more sense in 2 years.. I think that's bullsh*t and he believes that by that point GGG will be at 168 and then he can just use the same excuse, about GGG being 1 weight class above Canelo.
I am looking forward to Canelo vs Cotto, assuming it happens, however Oscar needs to stop preventing Canelo from GGG especially if he beats Cotto and becomes the 'lineal' middleweight champion. Lastly, a hypothetical match up just because I love these. Jose Luis Castillo vs Juan Manuel Marquez.
B from NY
Bread’s Response: Thanks for following me over bro.
Here is the thing. Sometimes we criticize good fights for not being made. Now we are criticizing a good one for being made. If Porter and Broner want to fight at a catchweight let them and enjoy the fight. They both will be compensated handsomely for the fight. I agree that the winner will get his win discredited but that’s better than being the loser….
I think Broner’s best weight would be around 143. Let’s remember he came in a 1lb over vs John Molina. So making 140 is a push for him in my opinion. You say he has lots of options at 140 but who can he really fight at 140. Danny Garcia and Lamont Peterson just fought. So neither would have been ready. More importantly Peterson and Broner do camps together so I assume fighting is not their preference. And let’s remember Garcia and Peterson fought at a catchweight also.
Right now I think the fight is a 50/50 fight with question marks surrounding both fighters. Porter seems to be the more dedicated athlete, while Broner seems to be the more talented. Broner was manhandled a by Maidana but Porter was outboxed by the sharp shooting Kell Brook. Porter is easy to hit and Broner is a sharpshooter. But Broner can be outworked and Porter has a great work rate.
I really can’t call this fight but I am concerned about the weight for Shawn. Making 144lbs will be a struggle for him. In that Vegas heat it could deplete him. I think Porter can’t be higher than 155 the morning of the fight which isn’t so bad because they will fight at night and he still has all day to replenish. But people don’t realize Shawn is short but he’s a big, dense kid. He’s going to shave off muscle going to 144.
Shawn also cuts often in fights and when you lose too much weight, it’s easier to get cut. Your bones around your eyes become more pronounced. On top of that you lose fluid in your skin. Broner wears Reyes gloves and he’s a sharp puncher….
This is an intriguing fight and I’m looking forward to it.
I'm still not sold on Khan. I think that Algieri was very inexperienced against Pacquiao but has decent skills and a long reach. Is it buddy Mcgirt that they've brought in as an experienced guy in their camp? Khan is very overestimating of himself and his skills, though he has improved under Virgil Hunter. All I'm saying is khan better look out.
Bread’s Response: Rob Jackson you know I love your insight but Algieri is going to get sparked bro. He tries to do too much. He thinks he’s boxing and lots of his movement is asinine. I also don’t think he has great defensive reflexes. His legs are his defense. Last but not least he has an easy rhythm to catch. Look at him close. It’s easy to hit Algieri. Some people confuse a fighter being a boxer with being good defensively. I don’t think Algieri has good defense. Add that up with Algieri is a kid who goes down. A few of those Pacquiao knockdowns were just flops were Algieri was avoiding punches and punishment.
I like Khan big in this one. Either a late stoppage or wide UD. Mark it down.
Bread who would say is Fighter of this present Decade so far? I know you don’t have a problem with Manny winning from 2000-09 but I think Floyd has been the best Fighter of the last 15 years. I’m a huge Manny fan by the way and it kills me to admit that. I still haven’t slept well after his loss. Hypothetical match ups. Floyd Mayweather vs Donald Curry and GGG vs Marvin Hagler?
Bread’s Response: Floyd Mayweather has a great case for the Fighter of the last decade and he’s without a doubt the Fighter of the first half of this decade. I don’t have a problem with Manny winning from 2000-09 because Floyd retired for two years and Manny outperformed him against Hatton and De La Hoya. Manny also beat 3 sure bet HOF is Morales, Marquez and Barerra in that decade. Floyd separated himself from 2010-present…..
Listen man I’m really passionate over boxing and sports in general. When Ray Leonard was going to fight Marvin Hagler I was terrified. I knew what Hagler was and I couldn’t stomach Leonard getting hurt. I literally challenged a man to a street fight for teasing me because Riddick Bowe beat my favorite fighter of the 90s Evander Holyfield in their first fight. So I understand what you are going through. But as you get older you have to put things in perspective. Manny Pacquiao made over 100 million dollars to fight Floyd Mayweather. He didn’t get knocked out, knocked down or beat up. He just loss a clear decision to a great fighter. Move on because Manny sure will. My oldheads taught me a saying that I still live by. “Don’t cry the blues when you lose, just grin when you win.”
Marvin Hagler over GGG in a brutal hard fought decision. Hagler was indefatigable. You couldn’t visibly hurt him and he was just as mean and nasty as GGG.
Donald Curry should be in the HOF. He was like 400-4 as an amateur and would have been a favorite to win the gold in 1980 had the US not boycotted the Olympics. Pipino Cuevas got voted in and he and Curry are from adjacent eras. Cuevas didn’t do anything Curry didn’t. I think Curry’s out of the ring discretions have cost him a HOF vote which is a shame.
Curry is not the fighter Mayweather is as far as legacy but if you’re asking me head to head who would win, I would pick Curry. Curry was all that and a bag of chips bro. He just had a short prime. He was a huge welterweight , he was great technically, had a big punch and was a lights out finisher. Look at a prime Curry against Milton McCory and Nino LaRocca on youtube.
I want to point something out to you guys. People always claim that athletes get bigger and faster as time goes on but it doesn’t apply in baseball and boxing. 95mph is still 95mph. Nolan Ryan and Bob Gibson would still be the hardest pitchers today. Mickey Mantle can still lead the league in homers today with about 50.
And in boxing let’s look at the boxing’s most celebrated divisions. Welterweight and Middleweight. The best welterweights of this era have been Floyd Mayweather and Manny Pacquiao. Mayweather is 5’8 and Pacquiao is 5’6. Throw in current top guys Tim Bradley 5’6, Amir Kahn 5’8 ½ and Kell Brook who is a good sized 5’9 welter.
Look back 20 years. Felix Trinidad was an intimidating 5’11. Vernon Forest was 6’0. Oscar De La hoya was 5’10. All of those guys were not only big but you could envision them being beast at higher weights.
Go back 30 years and you had Thomas Hearns 6’1, Ray Leonard 5’10 and Donald Curry 5’10 ½ as the best welters of the day. All were able to win titles at higher weights. The same size and physicality Floyd had over Manny, Curry would have over him.
Same thing goes for the middleweights. GGG is about 5’10 ½. He has good size but not overwhelming. Cotto is one of the smallest guys ever to be lineal middleweight champion. Gerald McCllelan, Bernard Hopkins, Roy Jones and James Toney are bigger and had higher weight potential. Marvin Hagler was not that tall but he had 75 inch arms and he was as physical fighter as to ever live. His length and physicality made up for his lack of height.
Think about that when you assess fighters of past eras and fighters of this current eras when someone assumes the fighters of this era are bigger and faster and more physical.
Htown Stew is back in the building, it's been a minute and I got a lot to say so let me get right too it. Before the MAYPAC fight you thought very highly of Manny so how has his loss to Mayweather changed your opinion of him and Floyd. Do you believe Manny was injured? Do you believe Manny is washed up. Do you think Manny was on drugs when he was mowing down men much larger than him in impressive fashion. My take is what it's always been and that is we really don't know how great Floyd is because he's head and shoulders above the competition in his era. There are no Thomas Hearns, Aaron Pryor's, Ray Leaonard's, and Sweet P's, etc in the current crop of boxers so you can't be an all time great fighting fighters who aren't all time great's.
Floyd looked like the same old Floyd despite drug testing. Manny on the other hand looked like Ben Johnson after steroids he didn't belong in the same ring as Floyd. I went to Vegas for the fight and while there I talked to Kenny Bayless and Paulie Malignaggi and asked them what they thought about the fight and they both said that Mayweather's straight right hand in the first round changed the way Manny fought the rest of the fight. After feeling Floyd's power, Manny was reduced to posing and fainting and trying to out box a master boxer the rest of the fight. Bayless said there were lots of opportunities in the fight for Manny to engage Floyd but Manny didn't take advantage of them. Manny threw 1 more punch than Floyd that tells me all I need to know about this fight Foyd dominated Manny by a larger amount than any P4P 1 v 2 match up that I have ever saw he is officially the Jordan of boxing.
Man Terrance Crawford is my new favorite boxer this dude is brutal he boxes and has power to put guys to sleep. It's a beauty to behold. He reminds me of a younger Floyd. My question is do you think he can carry his power up the ladder to 147 and 154. I don't have to remind you how Floyd mashed on guys when he was at 130 -140, it wasn't until he started campaigning at 147 and 154 and started having hand problems that his KO percentage dipped dramatically. If I were handling Crawford I would fight Lucas Matthysse, Danny Garcia and then Adrian Bronner. If he completes that trifecta dude would be positioned to take TBE's (jokes bro) spot atop the boxing world. All those fights are marketable and very winnable. He would have cleaned out the division and would be firmly entrenched at #2 PFP behind Andre Ward, assuming Mayweather retires.
Speaking of Mayweather retiring once he's gone who do you think takes his spot atop the boxing world. I know the favorite is Canello especially after his destruction of James Kirkland. I was ringside for that one and dude obliterated Kirkland. You are a trainer have you ever seen this type of dynamics where a fighter looks like Clark Kent without his trainer and Superman with her. It makes no sense to me but what do I know? Canello if he beats Cotta which I'm predicting he will, is suppose to fight GGG if he pulls that one off he'd knock Floyd off his throne even if he wasn't retired. Problem is I think GGG would wear Canello down and stop him late. So then the torch could pass to GGG unless he fights SOG Andre Ward in which case Ward would be King until he fought Kovalev.
I think Kovalev would give Ward the business like no one has been able to do. Leaving the throne to once again possibly go tot he Heavyweights, Wilder in particular. This dude is explosive and athletic and I give him a real chance of knocking off Klitschko. If he does that he'd be the closest thing to Iron Mike the division has seen since uhmm well Mike Tyson and America would finally have brought the belts back home.
In closing I want you to give me your take on Nicolas Walters performance against Donaire and do you think he is a superstar in the making or was Donaire washed up. Is Gary Russell the truth or was Gonzalez shot. Can Russell be a force? Do you think Thurman deserves a shot a Mayweather if not Thurman then who?? What's next for JRock I think he could give the business to Austin Trout, Carlos Molina, and K9, I especially would like to see him fight Vanes Martirosyan to see how he'd fair against a high level common opponent of the Charlo's. I think you's agree Jrock is on a collision course with them dudes and the winner takes all.
Hopes this makes the bag but even if it doesn't I'd like to get your take, as always peace and God bless
Bread’s Response: Here is the thing Stew. People have drawn a line with this Mayweather vs Pacquiao thing where they almost have to contradict themselves at this point. I’m going to go deep.
I would never be so foolish to accuse any fighter of PED use just because someone said they were on PEDs. You have to be an independent thinker in this game. You have to respect everyone and you should never repeat opinion as the truth without research. When Manny was on his incredible run people started accusing him of being a PED user. In fact if you looked at the comments sections of many of the articles many made mention that Alex Ariza was giving him “power pellets”. I’m sure you remember that. Those people made it clear that they were Pro Floyd so therefore they were Anti Manny. I never got that and I still don’t. I like both guys.
Nevertheless if you took that stance back then, now 5 years later Floyd Mayweather has hired Alex Ariza. The same guy that some deemed responsible for Manny’s PED run. So if Ariza was a PED peddler to Manny is he one to Floyd? Or is he just a good S&C coach. Ariza did a great job with Amir Khan, Julio Cesar Chavez and Marcos Maidana also… I say Ariza is a good coach until someone can prove to me otherwise. Floyd actually looked better vs Manny did he did in his two fights against Maidana. Ariza deserves some credit. My point is many have contradicted themselves once condemning Ariza now they praise him because he’s working with Floyd.
For the record I don’t know who is on PEDs and who is not. I am super careful not to over praise a fighter from this era because I know in boxing we have big PED problems. But at the same time I won’t discredit a fighter’s accomplishments just because they outperform the public’s expectations.
When Pacquiao took over Floyd’s number 1 p4p spot in 2008 after Floyd retired Floyd’s fans didn’t like it. When Pacquiao outperformed Floyd vs Oscar De La Hoya and Ricky Hatton the whispers became screams. But I never got caught up. Common opponent performance is a valid barometer but it’s not the end all. Manny is different from Floyd. He punches harder, more often and back then he was a lights out finisher. George Foreman crushed Ken Norton and Joe Frazier and Ali struggled with them. If Ali never fought Foreman many would assume Foreman would crush Ali, but he fought and he beat Foreman. It happens in boxing all the time.
But in the Floyd vs Manny debate the accusations became louder. Manny outperformed expectations and instead of getting praise he got discredit from many. Many said nobody had ever done what Manny was doing. But I saw Thomas Hearns jump from 154lbs to 175lbs and knockdown Denis Andries multiple times and ultimately knocking him out. In this era I can’t think of one super welterweight who would even try to fight a top 5 light heavyweight. So I never repeated no one had ever done it before because there have been some isolated special cases. I personally always thought I was looking at a great fighter in Manny Pacquiao from the very first time I saw him fight back in 2002 on the Lewis vs Tyson undercard. I never ran with the “herd theory” of how did he all of sudden become so good. He was great at 23 years old when I first saw him.
Manny Pacquiao sued Floyd Mayweather and Golden Boy Promotions for the PED allegations. When you sue someone all doors get opened. FULL disclosure. Again I don’t know if Pacquiao is a PED user or NOT. I would never vouch for any fighter of this era unless they tested 24/7, 365 regardless if they had a fight or not. But I do know that he was willing to go to court and many things would have been disclosed, including his B samples of past test. Those samples are one of the reasons I don’t over praise fighters of this era because I strongly believe in the next decade or so, some of these B samples will be tested and some of the guys we viewed as great fighters, legacies will be tarnished because there will be some not so pleasant findings.
Manny’s scored 4 kos in a row from David Diaz to Miguel Cotto and people started repeating how is getting so many kos. Well during that time in his last 25 fights he had scored like 20kos. The dude was a great fighter in his prime. It’s not fair to take a small microcosm of a 60 plus fight career and start tearing him down. Out of the very same mouths, they screamed Hatton was overrated, Oscar and Cotto were weight drained. Well if that is the case then why did Manny’s performances lead people to believe he was on PEDS. After all, if his opponents sucked so bad then we should have expected him to do that. You see the points I’m making…People just couldn’t humble themselves and give him his due. They had to justify it with their own logic. So either he was on PEDs, or Top Rank was matching him great or his opponents were used up. SMH.
Now they repeat how come he hasn’t knocked anyone out since 2009. But they never say who his opponents were. Joshua Clottey, Antonio Margarito, Shane Mosley, Juan Manuel Marquez twice, Brandon Rios, Tim Bradley twice, Chris Algieri and Floyd Mayweather. In over 340 career fights those 9 fighters have been stopped exactly one time before Manny fought them. Once in over 300 fights! That one time occurrence was when Antonio Margarito was stopped by Shane Mosley and Margarito has the best chin out of the bunch. So if people would just research the facts. When someone at the barbershop repeats that Manny hasn’t scored a stoppage since 2009, they could always ask the person who were his opponents.
Manny Pacquiao is a great fighter and he always has been. He’s the best Asian Fighter ever. He’s among the top 3 southpaws ever. And he’s one of the top 20-30 fighters ever. He just loss to another special fighter in Floyd Mayweather. I don’t get why we can’t embrace them both. I don’t think he looks like Ben Johnson off of PEDs. I think he’s getting old just like all fighters do. He has 65 fights and he’s closer to 40 than he is 30. Father Time is the TBE. He’s undefeated.
I don’t know who will carry the throne after Floyd leaves. Maybe the empire will get split up. Let’s wait and see I don’t want to speculate too much. Floyd just did 4.4 million buys. That may never be topped again…..Let’s see how they match Terrance Crawford.
Nicholas Walters is the real deal but he has a serious threat in front of him in his next fight. Nonito was a little undersized and past it but I give Walters full credit. Nonito hit him right on the money and he took it then took Nonito out.
Gary Russell can be a force. He beats Leo Santa Cruz and Abner Mares if given the opportunity.
A guess Thurman has done enough to deserve a shot at Mayweather. But Danny Garcia is the MOST deserving…
I know you are cool with him but you can’t justify Paulie Malignaggi working with Memo. Paulie is a bum and you know it and if he starts knocking guys out now he would be the biggest hypocrite ever. Call it Bread!
Bread’s Response: Relax bro it’s not that deep. Yes I’m cool with Paulie if you ever talked boxing with him you would be too. You can’t talk boxing with everyone. Paulie is one of the few. But here is the thing. Why do I have to justify what Paulie does? You’re tripping.
Ok let me address this. Paulie is not a bum he’s a solid fighter who won 2 world titles and he made the most out of his physical ability. Sure Memo has a checkered past but that doesn’t mean every fighter who works with him is a cheater. One would be a fool to believe that Memo couldn’t help a fighter in a legal manner. Just like he could help them in an illegal manner.
I don’t know what some of these guys are willing to do. Maybe fighters go to Memo and they ask him for help but nothing illegal. Maybe some go to him and ask for help at ALL cost. I really don’t know and I don’t rule either side out.
Now the elephant in the room is JM Marquez’s physique at 40 years old and his brutal ko of Manny Pacquiao. I get it and understand it I personally find it suspicious.... And I will repeat this. I think Memo could go a long way in boxing if he was more transparent and he was more of an advocate for drug testing all year with or without a fight scheduled. I also think the sanctioning bodies and networks should join in and collaborate. There is no room for cheating in boxing. You can literally get someone killed.
If Paulie scores a few kos in a row sure people would start whispering, but people always whisper in boxing. If Paulie did it legally which I assume he would I actually think it would be a good thing, because Memo and Alex Ariza are good friends. And if Paulie saw sports science work for him in a first hand view maybe he would take a second look at Manny Pacquiao’s performances under Alex Ariza and reassess them. Who knows….Let’s see how things play out before you get bent out of shape.
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