By Stephen "Breadman" Edwards
The Daily Bread Mailbag returns with Stephen "Breadman" Edwards tackling such topics as Terence Crawford vs. Errol Spence, Jarrett Hurd vs. Jermell Charlo, Mikey Garcia vs. Robert Easter, Tank Davis vs. Jamel Herring and much more.
Breadman you called you each fight perfectly again. To quote you ”Bread’s Response: I like Charlo over Trout but I’m not sure he smokes Trout. Here is why. Charlo has scored basically 3 one punch kos in a row. That’s not something that occurs often at the top level. He’s really hot. That’s like a guy scoring 50 pts in 3 straight NBA games. You have to come back down to earth eventually. So I think Charlo will win but I don’t expect him to spark Trout out cold. I actually think it will be competitive for a while. Trout can box. He does know how to win some rounds.
I like Crawford over Horn. I think Horn is a tough, awkward bruiser, who has a tough rhythm to catch. But I noticed a big flaw in his game. Horn expends too much energy in order to be effective. His prime won’t last long unless he evolves. He fights out of a bounce or a swaying rhythm and jumps in and out. The longer the fight goes the easier he will be to time. I expect Horn to rough house, head butt and mush Crawford early. But Crawford has some of the best concentration and adjustment principles in boxing. At some point he will adjust. I like Crawford by late stoppage or 117-111 decision.
Santa Cruz vs Mares will be Barrera vs Morales without the offensive fire power. I think both guys will have moments but Santa Cruz is long for the weight. He has a really good jab and straight right hand. I think his 1-2 will be the most judge friendly combo of the fight. I like him to nip it but expect controversy, expect Mares to think he won. Don’t be surprised at another drawish type of fight."
I don’t know how you do it man but props to you. I admit I went against you in the Charlo vs Trout match up. I thought Charlo would smoke Trout. I was at the fight and everyone in our section was talking about Charlo’s punching power. I am a big fan but I don’t study fighter’s records and past opponents. I’m sort of in between casual and hardcore. But that’s my fault because I didn’t know Charlo only had 15 knockouts in 30 wins, now 31. I can see why you picked Trout not to get smoked. Over half of Charlo’s opponents have gone the distance yet everyone raves about his knockout power. There were some other things being mentioned in our section about his new found power but I won’t get into that.
I have a few questions relating to Charlo and his future. Has anyone with such a low amount of knockouts ever been regarded as such a big puncher? Who did you have winning the fight? From our point of view we had Trout winning and we let Charlo know it as he walked by? Do you think Charlo is as big a puncher as he’s advertised? And who wins Charlo or Hurd?
Bread’s Response: Thanks man. Yes all of the fights went how I expected but I get some wrong too. No one can get them all right.
Charlo is an enigma with his punching power. He has a low KO% but he does have some huge 1 punch kos. I remember he clipped Denis Douglin and Chris Chatman back in the day with one punch kos before he hit the maninstream. Then in other fights coming up he didn’t look like a puncher like vs Charlie Ota. I don’t know maybe it’s a confidence thing. Knocking guys out is not all about power.
I actually think Jermell Charlo is a big puncher. A trained eye can tell he can crack and he punches violently. He just doesn’t have a lot of knockouts but make no mistake he can punch. I think he needs distance though to really muster up his power. If you notice he lets his opponents get far away from him and then he sort of coils like a cobra and builds up momentum and then boom. This is a gift and curse. It’s a gift because he generates power from the technique he uses. He has really strong legs and he uses them to spring into his opponents. It’s a curse because he seems to have power only at one range. You can smother him it seems and also when you go away from him completely out of range, he reaches really bad and misses often.
Terry Norris is the only other fighter of modern times that I can think of that was hailed as a murderous puncher who didn’t have a lot of kos coming up. I remember when Norris fought Philly’s own Meldrick Taylor, Norris was like 27-3 with 14 kos. Very similar to Charlo’s record as far as kos. But Norris went on a good ko streak for the rest of his career. Norris and Charlo punch similar off the bounce but Norris was a better overall puncher because his punches were shorter and crisper and he seemed more dangerous from every range.
I don’t score fights while watching them, you guys know that. But I did think the fight was close. First off I want to give Trout and his coaches their props. Trout was supposed to be cannon fodder for Charlo. And Trout boxed his butt off and did the best he could. Charlo has every advantage over Trout. Speed, power, size, athleticism, age you name it. But without those 2 bizarre knockdowns naked eye tells me that was a drawish fights. I’m not saying the knockdowns weren’t legit, I just think they weren’t clean. So I don’t have a problem with Charlo winning. Conventional logic says Charlo won between 6-8 rounds including some swings. But it was, close. Here is the thing. I’ve heard scorecards that were all over with most people thinking Charlo won. But I always say that the rounds in which there is not much action still have a winner and a loser.
Trout was controlling Charlo with subtle movement, a feint, a pesky jab and defense in the rounds he won. Charlo was missing some huge shots. So in those rounds you have to give them to Trout. You can’t just eliminate those type of rounds because there wasn’t a lot of violence. There lies the problem in scoring. It’s 12 individual rounds. I have no problem with Charlo winning the fight. But naked eye tells me Trout won 5 or 6 rounds. He couldn’t have won though because a knockdown is a 10-8 round and Charlo had two 10-8 rounds.
One thing for sure is Hurd’s confidence will be sky high. He outperformed Charlo vs Trout. But that doesn’t mean he will win. You can’t judge outcomes sole based on common opponents. Hurd is a better pressure fighter than Charlo. Hurd comes forward better, he throws more punches and he’s more relaxed. Hurd really can wear you down pressing on you. Where as Charlo looks like a bigger puncher than Hurd for one shot, but he’s not as active, and he doesn’t have the volume Hurd has. So Hurd will do better with movers and boxers. It’s really a style thing. Hurd tracks movers down and tries to wear them down and he doesn’t try to punch hard with every shot. Charlo is more like a mad bomber. Sometimes he will catch a guy with a big shot, sometimes he won’t. So Hurd will do better vs fighters like Austin Trout.
But in a head to head match up that may not apply. Stylistically they both have advantages. Hurd comes to you once he starts getting hit. Charlo is brutal if he can catch you on the end of his big hook and right hand. We all know Hurd gets hit. I also think Charlo is faster and the better athlete. One day Hurd’s great chin will give out. It’s simple physics. Charlo will be able to fight Hurd in his natural style that he had before his last 5 fights. If you look at Charlo’s stance you can see he’s better when fighters engage him.
But Hurd is actually more skillful. He does subtle things on the inside that Charlo does not do. Hurd also has a much higher work rate. Charlo throws less than 40 punches/round. Hurd cracks a 100 often. In a close fight that matters. Hurd is also effective from more ranges. Outside, mid range and inside. Where as Charlo likes you on the end of his big shots. I think Hurd can change the range and make Charlo over move in and tire himself out in order to get extension on his punches.
This is truly a 50/50 match up. But Hurd has one big advantage that I noticed. His demeanor. Charlo got really frustrated and upset during the Trout fight. He was talking in the corner, his body language was demonstrative and one of frustration. He seems to be very high strung. Jarrett Hurd is cool, relaxed, attentive and very receptive of his corner at all times from what I’ve seen. We have seen Hurd losing big in fights and not get frustrated like that. In a close even fight with so much tension and high stakes, demeanor can be the difference.
The thing about Charlo though is he’s won fights that people didn’t think he would. He comes through in those fights. The picks will be split in this one. I don’t have a winner yet but this is just my initial breakdown.
Man I really can't pick a winner in a potential Spence/Crawford fight. I would see both guys as career undefeated champs if they were in different divisions - although I hate discounting fighters because of a loss, but it does mean a lot nowadays. You were talking about looping punches being something that Spence has somewhat of a problem with based off of his style. One thing I love about Crawford is his ability to stay in the pocket and throw those looping shots on the inside and at the kill zone range. First question is do you see this being a big advantage Crawford has or is it just part of the list of slight advantages the other will have to adjust to in the big picture of the fight? Both of these guys are by far two of my favorite fighters currently and I think when it is all said and done they will be on that list all time as well. I think because they are just such animals in the ring that even a loss wouldn't affect them nearly as much as it does for 99% of other boxers because they are so vicious and headstrong. Secondly, do you think one of them losing will unfairly lower their historical rank in this day and age of a loss being so blown up by media and terrible forum members?
Bread’s Response: I think Terence Crawford vs Errol Spence will be the super fight of 2019 or 20 or 21 lol. It will be Leonard vs Hearns, Whitaker vs Chavez, De La Hoya vs Trinidad and Mayweather vs Pacquiao of this era. If they compete in a trilogy it will carry over until the 20s with the fighter of the decade on the line. That’s how big that fight will be. I hope they both make 10 million dollars to bump.
I think Crawford has more advantages over Spence than Spence has over Crawford. Both seem indefatigable. Both always seem to be the stronger fighter in the ring. I think Spence hits harder but as you know that doesn’t mean as much as to who takes the better punch. Crawford is faster and quicker. Both can be hit but Crawford is better defensively and he boxes a little bit better. Spence is as strong as a bull and his body work is just debilitating. Spence is the bigger man naturally and seems to have more physicality.
Here is the one advantage I see that Crawford has that is not close. Experience. Although they are both at the top of the division. Crawford came out as a pro from a different graduating class than Spence. Crawford had his amateur run with guys like Shawn Porter, Danny Garcia, Gary Russell, Vasyl Lomachenko and Demetrius Andrade. All of those guys have sort of hit their peak by now and Crawford and Loma being special are still there. Where as Spence is of the 2012 graduating class. Most of the guys from Spence’s class are not even champions yet. Jo Jo Diaz just got his 1st title shot. My point is there is a difference between a prime and a peak/apex. Spence for sure looks to be in his prime but we don’t know if he’s at his peak yet. Only time will tell. We know Crawford is at a special peak.
Kell Brook may be the best literal opponent that either has faced. I think Brook would defeat everyone Crawford fought in a boxing ring. But other than that Crawford just has more experience vs more styles. And it’s not by a little bit, it’s by a lot. So while this could be a 50/50 fight on paper, if you look at the experience levels and learning curbs, Crawford is ahead of Spence.
It doesn’t mean Spence can’t win though. James Toney was ahead of Roy Jones in the same department and Jones handled him. Special fighters can do that. But it is a distinct advantage that Crawford has. If I’m Spence I line up the best PBC fighters that are available even if he has to fight a non title fight at 154, to close the gap until they get the Crawford call.
I don’t know what these fans or media members will say about the loser of this fight. But who cares. Both of those kids are tremendous fighters win or lose. I’m just glad they are willing to put it all on the line.
Bread, what do you think of the Whyte-Parker matchup? I can't call it & the odds are almost even (Parker is very slightly favored).
Is Whyte riding too high (as you say) after his brilliant performance against Browne or is Parker too experienced for him now after 12 rounds against AJ??
Bread’s Response: I can’t call this fight either. I will say that Joseph Parker is the better more skillful fighter. But that doesn’t always mean you will win. Whyte is a tough guy and he’s mean. He fights hard and sometimes that can overcome skill. It’s a tough match up, I can see an outcome where either guy wins.
Hi Bread, Your mailbag is gold!
Mikey Garcia vs EasterJr is set for July. Your thoughts please?
Crawford vs Spence Jr hopefully gets made next year. Wow! Wow! Wow!
SHO sports is stacked with big fights, ESPN has two big guns and HBO has GGG. How do you see the balance of things here with the networks?
Bread’s Response: I love the Garcia vs Easter fight. Garcia has to be the betting favorite. He’s more established, he’s been dominant and he’s one of the best 6 or 7 fighters on the planet. Easter has also struggled in his last few fights at the championship level. He’s had some really close decisions that could have gone either way vs opponents that Garcia is a level above. But this doesn’t mean Garcia is guaranteed to win.
Easter may be one of those guys that fights to the level of his competition. We won’t know until the level rises up. Easter has also changed camp locations. Changing camp locations and adding trainers can be a good and bad thing. I’ve seen it go both ways. But the one thing that is guaranteed is effort and conditioning. When a fighter gets in front of new coaches they put their best foot forward. Meaning no talking on their cell phones in the gym, no playing around, getting up on time, going to bed on time, no talking back to coaches. The fighters don’t want the new coaches to see whatever bad habits they have that led to the switch anyway. So expect Easter to give it all he has regardless of the outcome.
Right now it’s hard to go against Mikey Garcia though. I love Robert Easter and for years I was telling people he was a better prospect than Felix Verdejo. But at the top level I haven’t seen Easter make the adjustment that leads to him being dominant winning 7 or 8 rounds in a row. Garcia makes that adjustment in every fight. It’s an indicator of who is special and who is really good. As of now Easter has shown he’s really good but Garcia has shown he’s special for this era. So my early prediction is Garcia. Not sure how though.
Crawford vs Spence is a super fight between styles that will mesh. I guarantee that this fight won’t be a stinker. Unfortunately super fights in this era take 5 years to make. In no other era in the history of boxing would it take two undefeated fighters, in their primes, in the same division so long to fight. In the perfect world Spence would grab the WBC and WBA belts held by PBC fighters and challenge Crawford in the last quarter of 2019. But boxing is far from a perfect world. So my message to everyone writing in about this fight is to relax and not hold your breaths.
Right now I see 1. Showtime 2. ESPN 3. HBO. HBO has been the standard bearer for the longest time. I still think they have the best production and their broadcasters are A+ but they just don’t seem too interested in boxing anymore. People say HBO is dead but they have fighters or access to fighters who can fight on their network. Besides Canelo, GGG and Kovalev. They have Demetrius Andrade, Danny Jacobs, Billy Joe Saunders, Jamie Munguia, Dmitri Bivol and all of the other best fighters who are not exclusively affiliated with Top Rank or PBC. HBO could put on at least one very good match up every month if they chose to. I expect them to make a push with Bivol and Munguia as their future stars.
ESPN is doing their thing with Top Rank. I love their shows and they are making good competitive fights. However I do think they have a problem. I think that ESPN and Top Rank have the 2 best fighters in the world. But I don’t think they have the rivals for them. At some point they will have to concede that and fight PBC fighters. In both Crawford and Loma’s divisions their biggest and most marketable rivals are PBC fighters. Other than that I think Top Rank and ESPN are doing a great job and I love the match ups thus far.
Showtime and PBC seem to have the most fighters. They also have great commentators and production. Having more assets in business is always a great thing. But the PBC does have a problem. They have so many fighters to please. There are only a certain number of dates available. I can see the other networks and promoters going after PBC and Showtime fighters with the activity sales pitch. ESPN is openly offering 3 and 4 dates to their star fighters. While the best PBC fighters, fight twice a year tops. At some point this will have to change because it’s becoming glaring. I think Showtime will allow Errol Spence to fight 3 times in 2018 to start a new trend. Other than that Showtime is leading the pack.
What do you think of the Tank Davis vs Jamel Herring match up? I saw they were having a twitter beef and it looks like one of the sides made an offer. I know it’s not a super fight but I think it is a good hardcore fight. Do you think Davis is the top guy at 130 now that Loma has left the division?
Bread’s Response: Are you sure Davis vs Herring is being made. I haven’t heard anything about that. But I don’t watch twitter beefs man. That’s a millennial thing.
I have never really thought about this fight. I mean no disrespect but I think you got too caught up in the Twitter antics, I can’t see this fight being made next. If I’m wrong I will apologize to you and credit you as a source.
The reason being is Top Rank has great match makers. And Herring just lost 2 fights ago. He also is trying to move down to 130. He fought his whole career at 135. Rarely in boxing history does a fighter fight at one weight his entire career then move down years into his career and be successful. So I’m not saying it can’t be done, I’m just saying that you have to be careful when you do that. If I know that then those great matchmakers at Top Rank know that also.
Davis is a murderous puncher. He punches like a mix of Mike Tyson and Zab Judah. Moving down in weight if not done properly will lower your punch resistance. It’s the whole reason why they moved weigh ins to the day before. You lose fluid on your organs, blood, muscles and everything else that goes with reaction time and punch resistance. Herring is a very good fighter and he has Olympic pedigree. But he’s in his 30s and he’s tall, so he doesn’t have much fat on him. He’s also a smart guy. I have no 1st hand knowledge of this situation but I would bet that Top Rank or Herring will not face Tank Davis in their next fight. It just wouldn’t be fair to Herring to do that next.
I think Tank Davis may be ranked the highest out of the fighters at 130lbs. He deserves that. But I don’t know who the best is. They have to settle that in the ring. He has some serious challenges for himself at 130. Berchelt and Farmer are his biggest challenges.
Does being a 3 division champion automatically put you in the Hall of Fame? We have seen Crawford and Lomachenko do it recently and both seem to be destined to the HOF. What are your thoughts?
Bread’s Response: Excellent question. I think Crawford and Loma will be in the HOF someday but being a 3 division champion is not an automatic qualifier in my opinion. Here is why.
Boxing’s first 3 division champion was Bob Fitzsimmons. He did it at the turn of the century. No one else would do it for another 30 + years in Tony Canzoneri. Three men did it in the 30s, Canzoneri, Barney Ross and Henry Armstrong. Then skip another 30 years to the mid 60’s and Emille Griffith does it. No one did it in the 10s, 20s,40s,50s or 70s. So before the 1980’s only 5 men in history won titles in 3 separate divisions. Each one of those fighters was special and all time greats.
In the 80s which was a golden era, we had 9 fighters who did it. Wilfred Benitez, Alexis Arguello, Wilfredo Gomez, Roberto Duran, Ray Leonard, Thomas Hearns, Jeff Fenech, Hector Camacho and Julio Cesar Chavez. So now history has 14, 3 division champions in history and each fighter are either an all time great and/or HOF worthy. At this point in history it’s still a major accomplishment. You can tell by the men who did it.
As we move to the 90s more divisions and more belts become available but it’s still a serious accomplishment. Let’s look at the 3 division champions of the 90s. Iran Barkley, Duke Mckenzie, Pernell Whitaker, Mike McCallum*, Wilfredo Vasquez, Roy Jones Jr and Leo Gamez. Out of this group only Jones, McCallum and Whitaker are all time great and easy HOF candidates. Vasquez is worthy in my opinion. Besides Barkley a trend is starting and the trend is a 3 division champion starts at under 135 lbs and is able to win titles in 3 or more divisions without being a great fighter or HOF.
The 2000s were strong. Felix Trinidad, Johnny Tapia, James Toney, Shane Mosley, Manny Pacquiao, Erik Morales, Marco Antonio Barrera, Floyd Mayweather, Juan Manuel Marquez, Jorge Arce and Fernando Montiel. 11 fighters did it in the 2000s 9 are HOF or HOF worthy. But Arce and Montiel are only on the cusp and both have something in common, they both won their 1st title under 135.
In the 2010’s is where the accomplishment gets watered down. 18 men did it since 2010. Let’s name them. Miguel Cotto, Koki Kameda, Nonito Donaire, Abner Mares, Adrien Broner, Robert Guerrero, Roman Gonzalez, Leo Santa Cruz, Jorge Linares, Kazuto Ioka, Akira Yaegashi, Ricky Burns, Hozumi Hasegawa, Mikey Garcia, Donnie Nietes, Monster Inoue, Vasyl Lomachenko and Terence Crawford.
When you see an accomplishment it’s very important to research it and not take it for face value. I think I may have missed 1 or 2 guys with an interim belt or regular title but this is the best I could come up with. Every fighter from the 2010s who won titles in 3 or more divisions for the exception of Miguel Cotto won their first title at 135 or below. That’s an overwhelming amount.
In an era where 90% of the fighters are 20lbs naturally heavier than their division weight, it’s common to move up 3 and 4lbs. What I have also noticed out of this group is only Cotto, Donaire and Gonzalez are HOF locks. I know that we are in the present and the careers are still being shaped. But half of the fighters on the list are done fighting and they will not get in the HOF.
When you give this list the eye ball test tell me who on it is a legitimate great fighter. Out of the 18 which is the most in any decade by far and we still have 18 months to go. I say Cotto, Donaire, Gonzalez, Garcia, Lomachenko, Crawford and Inoue. Nietes, Santa Cruz and Ioka are on the cusp.
You also have to take into consideration that fighters who win their 1st title at 147 or higher are not winning 3 division titles in this era or the last. Trinidad, Toney and Cotto are the only 3 men who have done it since 2000. Since 1990 only 6 men have done it if you add in Jones, Barkley and McCallum.
From my point of view if a fighter in this era wins 3 division titles you have to look at who he beat, see if it was the lineal title and then look at the weight divisions to see if the accomplishment was rare. In this era the only special runs I have witnessed UNDER 135lbs exclusively have been Roman Gonzalez’s and Nonito Donaire’s. Monster Inoue’s is on his way if he wins this bantamweight tournament. In my research I have also observed that only 11 men in history have won 3 or more division titles with their 1st title being OVER 135lbs. Fitzsimmons, Griffith, Benitez, Leonard, Hearns, Barkley, Jones, McCallum, Toney, Trinidad and Cotto. Iran Barkley is the only one on the prestigious list that is not considered a great fighter. This tells me there is also a rarity in 3 or more division titles when you start out OVER 135.
At this point in time we have to look at the totality of the circumstances before we just throw guys in the HOF for winning 3 titles. Too many fighters have done it recently without being great or HOF worthy.
Now that Crawford has his 3rd division title he has to be number 1 pound for pound. Loma is good but Bud has been doing it much longer at a much higher level. Agree or disagree?
Bread’s Response: If Floyd Mayweather Jr. and Charley Burley had a baby it would be Terence Crawford. He reminds me of both. He fences with his lead hand and he checks off with a hook from both sides. He’s consistent with a jab, subtle body punching and impeccable adjustments. Props to Crawford and his team. He’s a tremendous talent.
I personally have Crawford and Loma 1a and 1b. In my opinion it’s no right or wrong answer. They are both operating at a special level. But I do have a problem when someone gives false reason as to WHY one is better than the other. You just gave a false reason.
Crawford has NOT been doing it longer than Loma. Not at the top level at least. They both won their titles in 2014. Crawford beat Ricky Burns and Loma beat Gary Russell. Same year. They both have won titles in 3 divisions and they both have roughly the same number of championship fights. About a dozen. It’s important you don’t repeat things without research. You’re really picking straws between the two of them. I give Crawford extra credit for unifying and winning 4 belts at 140. I give Loma extra credit because I think his available competition has been slightly better. Russell, Walters, Rigondeaux and Linares is slightly better than Crawford’s best in Gamboa, Postol, Diaz and say flip a coin between Burns and Horn. I guess you can hold Loma’s loss to Salido against him. Whitaker, Duran and Hagler has losses also before they hit their peak and they were as good as it gets. I personally don’t hold the Salido loss against Loma, because I think he has improved and he didn’t fight a featherweight. I didn’t hold it against Whitaker, Duran or Hagler either. The notion that the best P4P has to be undefeated is absurd. I can think of at least 6 men who have been the best fighter in the world that had a loss or two. Add Bernard Hopkins, Sugar Ray Leonard and Manny Pacquiao to the list.
While we are on the topic….Some publications have GGG at #1 and while I don’t agree, the argument that he’s been doing it longer applies to him not to Crawford. GGG has been a champion since 2010 and has almost double the championship fights that both Crawford and Loma has. I wouldn’t argue hard against GGG either because circa 87 Hagler was still the #1 guy but you could see slippage. Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield and JC Chavez were hovering. The same scenario was going in circa 96 when Whitaker was still the #1 guy but Jones and Oscar were at their peaks and hovering. So I get the GGG argument he hasn’t lost yet but I think Loma and Crawford are more peaky right now. Now if GGG clears out 160 and beats a mix of Canelo, Jacobs, Andrade, Charlo and Saunders then whoa…
I feel that Loma and Crawford will keep 1 upping each other. Crawford has a super fight vs Errol Spence on the horizon. But Loma has a super fight vs Mikey Garcia on the horizon. If they both win those fights they just keep raising the bar. I just hope this doesn’t turn into a race thing. I don’t read the comments section but I can remember when Mayweather and Pacquiao were the two best. Some of the true feelings and emotions of many fans and participants came out and it got ugly. Loma and Crawford both deserve their lofty status. I also want to point out that Crawford’s style lends more to longevity just a foot note. He may outlast Loma at his peak.
One last thing. Monster Inoue is making a real case for being as good as anyone. He’s on a roll just as good as Loma’s and Crawford’s. He’s just as dominant and just as destructive. He just entered the bantamweight tournament and that tournament is stacked. When a fighter wins a real tournament with no matchmaking against elite competition I think we should give extra credence to his achievement ala Andre Ward in 2011. No Asian fighter under featherweight has ever been the #1 P4P fighter in boxing. But if the Monster wins this tournament he will have as good a claim as anyone. OBJECTIVITY is the word. Greatness has no color.
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