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#21
Old 10-15-2006, 07:17 AM
K-DOGG
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Originally Posted by Bobby Peru View Post
Nice thread Dogg.

Are the most powerful humans (presidents, kings/queens etc), the ones in positions of power, are they the ones that possess the neccesary lack of compassion to get them where they are?
Do they follow the 'natural' evolutionary path?

The world is supposedly run by a very small group of people. The ones who pull the strings.

David Icke believes the british royal family are actually lizards. Makes sense.



Maybe the masses are like drone bees. Our emotions that are at odds with evolution may be the strings that they pull in order to control us.
"The weak ones are there to justify the strong".
Scary; but plausible.
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#22
Old 10-15-2006, 09:16 AM
K-DOGG
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Here's my original ending paragraph with the "question" imbedded:


So, the question to the community is this.....why follow the command of others? Why conform to society if there is no moral reason to...and where do these morals come from and why do we listen to them? In the animal kingdom, the weak die, the strong survive, and the strongest breed, thus securing the strength of the community. Why have we evolved down a different path from the other animals and how is it benefitting us when it seems completely contrary to nature? Those of you who have no belief in God, where do your morals come from and why are morals in our best interest if there is no "punishment" when we are dead for behaving immorally?

Now, if that's too "wordy", Doc Filth summed it up as "How can there be morality without God"; and I would change that a little....."Why would we evolve to develope morality, if there is no God.....what purpose does it serve?"

So, you pick or answer both, depending upon your disposistion.


The idea is basically this....we have morals; and we have people who don't believe in God who are moral just as we have people who believe in God and claim to worship Him/Her who are as immoral as people come. So, obviously, belief in God has nothing to do with whether or not you are a moral person.

As a "believer", I would, of course, say that God is in you, whether you believe it or not....and you are listening to that part of yourself, whether you recognize the source or not.

Now, since I believe in God, I cannot speak from the point of view of someone who does not....which is why I'm specifically asking any atheists to help me understand how or why we have morality or care about morality as humans; how does morality serve us as a species?

May sound like a dumb question and if so, I apologize; but I am serious. In my mind, if all we are are animals in pants, if there is nothing spiritual or eternal about us, I can't see where morality or compassion would benefit our evolution as a species.

Thoughts?

Hope that wasn't even more confusing.

Last edited by K-DOGG; 10-15-2006 at 09:29 AM..
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#23
Old 10-15-2006, 02:11 PM
cple
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Though i am not an atheist, i'll try to play devil's advocate so to speak.

So the essential question presented in this thread is: how can there be morality without God? Why would humans evolve to develope morality, if there is no God.....what purpose does it serve?

I don't have a definitive answer, but i'll try to present some ideas.

Though i believe that morality ultimately stems from God--as does everything good in this world--but i don't think that means atheists are unable to understand the concept of morals. Their logic is just slightly different than believers. People don't kill because they themselve don't want to be killed. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" isn't an idea restricted to a Christian's understanding. For example, if you hit someone, i would think it to be natural to expect retaliation; and because of this, people refrain from hitting each other. The same goes for murder, rape, etc.

Another point we be that we have morals because we have evolved. The human brain has grown and become more sophistocated, thus increasing our range and capacity to feel more complicated emotions. Why did we evolve? Who knows? I mean, why is there life in the first place? Maybe just because. Perhaps there is no explanation; it's just chance.

...or evolution is all about self-preservation. Compared to all other animals, humans are fairly weak and awkwardly formed, so intellectual development was necessary for our survival. Intellectual development = larger brains = more sophisticated feelings = the ability to concieve of morality, love, etc. So in a way, morality is connected to survival of the fittest...our survival as a species.
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#24
Old 10-15-2006, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K-DOGG View Post
I] I can't see where morality or compassion would benefit our evolution as a species.[/I]
.
But it would. If everyeone had the idea that theyd try and take over, then there would be cahos and no one would get to live as they want. We need this co operation to be successful as a species. Now the whole thing you could just kill the people such as those who cant help themselves... well yes we dont do that? In our society but unforunately it has happened in others. Im confused:S Were bloody lucky! arnt we really
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#25
Old 10-15-2006, 04:43 PM
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Like agent Smith said, humans are a virus.

."Why would we evolve to develope morality, if there is no God.....what purpose does it serve?"
Maybe along with our intellectual development came the awareness of our mortality and also the recognition that we are alike. We could see ourselves in each other and recognise pain and suffering. From that came compassion.
Why did it happen?
Could just be a nasty little side effect of intelligence.

I would have thought that by seeing each other as ourselves we unite as a species and therefore are capable of achieving much greater goals.
We have developed an awareness that our health and happiness could leave us at anytime and therefore by having compassion for those less fortunate we are unsuring that if/wen we are weak or ill or old, we are repaid with the care we gave out.

Karma?
We have the forsight that if we act like a selfish ******* it will come back to bite us in the ass.
The knowledge of consequenses. And our enevitable aging and eventual death.
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#26
Old 10-15-2006, 04:53 PM
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I guess im classed as an atheist, but my belief in the fact that we (people, animals, plants) are all relying on each other to survive is the closest thing to the classic 'GOD' figure as i come.

I think spirituality is an awareness of that.

That we all came from the same place whether its a big bang or the work of God.
Our connection in this existance. That we share the same time and space. A monkey wearing pants can be as magical as the birth of a star if u look it in the eyes.
Alot of people just keep staring at the pants. lol

Last edited by Bobby Pazuzu; 10-15-2006 at 04:57 PM..
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#27
Old 10-16-2006, 05:24 PM
K-DOGG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Peru View Post
Like agent Smith said, humans are a virus.

."Why would we evolve to develope morality, if there is no God.....what purpose does it serve?"
Maybe along with our intellectual development came the awareness of our mortality and also the recognition that we are alike. We could see ourselves in each other and recognise pain and suffering. From that came compassion.
Why did it happen?
Could just be a nasty little side effect of intelligence.

I would have thought that by seeing each other as ourselves we unite as a species and therefore are capable of achieving much greater goals.
We have developed an awareness that our health and happiness could leave us at anytime and therefore by having compassion for those less fortunate we are unsuring that if/wen we are weak or ill or old, we are repaid with the care we gave out.

Karma?
We have the forsight that if we act like a selfish ******* it will come back to bite us in the ass.
The knowledge of consequenses. And our enevitable aging and eventual death.

Good post, Bobby.....though I would point out that there are plenty of people in the world who act badly towards others and nothing ever happens back to them, just as there are plenty of good people who do good unto others who have bad stuff happen to them all the time. The only time, logically and "un-supernaturally" that "karma" comes into play is when those people who you did either bad or good to remember and have a chance to return the favour....which could be considered both primitive, in the case of vengence.....and intellectual, in the case of returning a good favour.

Still, good post.
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#28
Old 10-16-2006, 05:27 PM
K-DOGG
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Originally Posted by platinummatt! View Post
But it would. If everyeone had the idea that theyd try and take over, then there would be cahos and no one would get to live as they want. We need this co operation to be successful as a species. Now the whole thing you could just kill the people such as those who cant help themselves... well yes we dont do that? In our society but unforunately it has happened in others. Im confused:S Were bloody lucky! arnt we really
Playing Devil's advocate, to your arguement that "we need cooperation" to survive as a species, remember.......the Serf system was in place for quite some time where the rich and most powerful, those with the largest armies and such, controlled the peasants and the peasants, if they wanted to survive....served the lords and kings, which were really the next step up from "chief".
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#29
Old 10-16-2006, 05:36 PM
K-DOGG
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Originally Posted by cple View Post
Though i am not an atheist, i'll try to play devil's advocate so to speak.

So the essential question presented in this thread is: how can there be morality without God? Why would humans evolve to develope morality, if there is no God.....what purpose does it serve?

I don't have a definitive answer, but i'll try to present some ideas.

Though i believe that morality ultimately stems from God--as does everything good in this world--but i don't think that means atheists are unable to understand the concept of morals. Their logic is just slightly different than believers. People don't kill because they themselve don't want to be killed. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" isn't an idea restricted to a Christian's understanding. For example, if you hit someone, i would think it to be natural to expect retaliation; and because of this, people refrain from hitting each other. The same goes for murder, rape, etc.

Another point we be that we have morals because we have evolved. The human brain has grown and become more sophistocated, thus increasing our range and capacity to feel more complicated emotions. Why did we evolve? Who knows? I mean, why is there life in the first place? Maybe just because. Perhaps there is no explanation; it's just chance.

...or evolution is all about self-preservation. Compared to all other animals, humans are fairly weak and awkwardly formed, so intellectual development was necessary for our survival. Intellectual development = larger brains = more sophisticated feelings = the ability to concieve of morality, love, etc. So in a way, morality is connected to survival of the fittest...our survival as a species.
Hmmm. Interesting post. I guess my cold hard logic towards pure evolution with no "God" doesn't allow for evolution to include such emotions because they appear, to me, to be detrimental from a certain perspective....but I can see your point.

In general, evolution happens because certain traits exhibited by the males are desireable by the females of the species, who, ultimately are in charge of what traits get passed on to the next generation. So, therefore...... the question boils down to ...what....women.....want.

LOL!!!!!!!! Thread Over!!
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#30
Old 10-16-2006, 05:46 PM
K-DOGG
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Okay, seriously. In a weird way, that makes sense.

Every guy on here knows that when it all boils down to it, women are the ones in charge of whether or not we get to have sex. True? Yes. I'm not saying we having developed cunning skills over time and such; but, ultimately, they have the "yes/no" power.

So, as the human brain developed, women who were fed up with neanderthal behavior.....no pun intended, neanderthals, afterall, were a completely different species.......didn't result in as many men having sex, so men had to redefine their behavior a little over time. As a result, men who had the best combination of "manly" as well as "sensitve" and "intelligent" behavior patterns procreated more, thus producing more intelligent offspring with more sensitivities.....morals, sympathy, empathy, etc. in addition to their "manly survival skills".


Holy ****! I've just answered my own question!!

The reason we have morality, compassion for others and such......is because it took our ancestors displaying these traits in order to get laid.


Good grief. And I thought there was some deep answer involved.

Nope. It was about sex all along.



Guess we know now why Adam took a bite of that apple.
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