God, No God, Morals, and Evolution

[K-DOGG]

This is not meant to be a thread where we discuss whether or not God exists, for such a thing can not be known with any degree of certainty, for one would have to know the nature of "God" in order to know whether or not such a being existed, and we don't know that. This is more of an examination of why we have evolved to such a state as we are in and what role belief in God or not plays in where we go from here and how we behave. Why have we developed common ethics, which do vary from culture to culture; but still have some essential truths?

First off, I completely understand where you atheists and agnostics are coming from....and don't know how to categorize myself, even. I do believe there is a God; but I'll be the first to admit that it's very difficult believing in God sometimes. Quite often I look at people around me and can see the "ape", so to speak...and have seen him in myself as well on occassion; and it's depressing.

I don't like to think that we are nothing more than animals in pants, quite honestly, for, to me....that kind of sucks. Then I see how readily we are willing to attack those who are different from us or even think differently from us, and I see a bunch of chimps attacking an outside invader who doesn't belong to their click.

Like many who believe, I was brought up in the church, attending every Sunday until I was 24 Years old; so, it is not inconceivable to me that much of why I believe has to do with being told over and over again that it is so and any other way is wrong.

Sure enough, too, my time came when God "let me down" or confused me; and things stopped making sense. As a result, I studied this and I studied that and found out things I didn't like to admit, such as the inconsistancies in the Bible.

However, I also found some comforting thoughts, such as the beliefs of the Oglala Lakota, according to Black Elk, some of the teachings of the Dali Llama, etc. How can religions who were never influenced by Christianity or Judaism teach the same essential priciples? How could Budha and the Oglala and other Native American Nations as well as other peoples who never knew the first thing about Jesus or the Hebrew God be keyed in to the same essential principles that Jesus taught without ever having heard of the man? Common sense? Maybe.....but maybe, just maybe it was something else.

One thing I don't believe in, as a general rule, is coincidence.....and this "maybe", this little maybe helped me to broaden my perception just a little. Some of you would say I'm grasping at straws, and, quite honestly, you may be right.

I choose to believe in God simply because I don't like the alternative. Under the alternative, I see no reason to love my neighbor as myself, I see no reason to obey any of the laws of man, even....for what authority has any man over me other than brute force and why can I not challenge him? Who is any man to tell me what to do? Who is any man to rule over me? Who is any man to tell me what my limitations are? Why can I not rule if I am powerful enough? Why deal with such worthless emotions as pity, mercy, and compassion, and such self-defaming behaviors as humbleness, piety, and modesty if there is no God to tell me that I should?

To me, it is against survival of the fittest and any personal ambitions I might have in my deepest, darkest subconsciousness....if I am merely an evolved animal, after all.

Just a glimpse at my Id, fellas....and just a reason why I chose to believe in God, because I don't like the way any of that sounds, personally. And, I suppose, when you get down to it, the reason it doesn't sound good to me, personally, is because of what I was taught at church growing up.

So, the question to the community is this.....why follow the command of others? Why conform to society if there is no moral reason to...and where do these morals come from and why do we listen to them? In the animal kingdom, the weak die, the strong survive, and the strongest breed, thus securing the strength of the community. Why have we evolved down a different path from the other animals and how is it benefitting us when it seems completely contrary to nature? Those of you who have no belief in God, where do your morals come from and why are morals in our best interest if there is no "punishment" when we are dead for behaving immorally?

Just some thoughts on a Saturday morning......and wondering what you guys think on this topic.

[platinummatt!]

ahhh my friend I have had these thoughts too and they disturb me. Im confused by what youre asking

[K-DOGG]

Originally Posted by platinummatt!

ahhh my friend I have had these thoughts too and they disturb me. Im confused by what youre asking

The question is this, I suppose....if there is no God, why be moral? If man does not have a soul nor an eternal essence....why worry about such things as doing unto others as you would have done unto you?

If there's no referee, why fight fair?

[Oasis_Lad]

Originally Posted by K-DOGG

The question is this, I suppose....if there is no God, why be moral? If man does not have a soul nor an eternal essence....why worry about such things as doing unto others as you would have done unto you?

If there's no referee, why fight fair?

because of compassion and the love we feel for another person

i try to be good to people because i would like them to treat me the same
not because of the fear of what god will do to me

[K-DOGG]

Originally Posted by OASIS_LAD

because of compassion and the love we feel for another person

i try to be good to people because i would like them to treat me the same
not because of the fear of what god will do to me

Right...but why is it necessary to possess compassion? To what end does it serve?

[Oasis_Lad]

oh and if anyone is interested there is a programme about the origins of the ten commandments and their worth and importance in todays society on the history channel

[Oasis_Lad]

Originally Posted by K-DOGG

Right...but why is it necessary to possess compassion? To what end does it serve?

it doesn't have to serve any purpose

just maybe seeing a smile on an old ladies face as you give up your seat for her on a bus is enough to know that compassion and kindness only creates compassion and kindness in another

[K-DOGG]

Originally Posted by OASIS_LAD

it doesn't have to serve any purpose

just maybe seeing a smile on an old ladies face as you give up your seat for her on a bus is enough to know that compassion and kindness only creates compassion and kindness in another

Agreed.

However, the perspective I'm attempting to come from here is if all we are are animals in pants, why evolve to such a point where we care about smiles on little old ladies faces? To me, our "evolution", such as it is, is contrary to every other case in nature.....and that just doesn't make sense to me if you take the "spiritual connection" out of the equation.

[Oasis_Lad]

Originally Posted by K-DOGG

Agreed.

However, the perception I'm attempting to come from here is if all we are are animals in pants, why evolve to such a point where we care about smiles on little old ladies faces? To me, our "evolution", such as it is, is contrary to every other case in nature.....and that just doesn't make sense to me if you take the "spiritual connection" out of the equation.

a bigger more intelligent brain means more evolved emotions

no one can truly understand evolution maybe it's just chance or maybe we evolve for a reason

who can say

[K-DOGG]

Originally Posted by OASIS_LAD

a bigger more intelligent brain means more evolved emotions

no one can truly understand evolution maybe it's just chance or maybe we evolve for a reason

who can say

It's just been something that's been on my mind lately. I've been having a heated debate with a devout atheist; and some of the questions he asked really dug in and made me realize my own questions. I held my own with him, to my way of thinking; but what is a man if he doesn't put not only his own beliefs but the beliefs of others under the microscope?

I can readily see how other animals have evolved and to what end, yet, human evolution really doesn't make sense to me. In our society, our emotions get in the way of cold hard logic and the way things seem like they ought to be if everything were geared soley towards the growth and affluence of the species. We have evolved into self-destructive behavior, which can be seen in our disagreements with religious beliefs and philosophies, of course. We don't put the strongest in charge in all cases; and we don't abandon the weak, or the dumb....where in the animal kingdom, those are the ones who die, thus ensuring the best DNA moves forward. In our society, our worst traits keep gettin bred into future generations, which has to be seen as detrimental for our species in the long-run. It appears we are sowing the seeds of our own destruction by evolutionary standards.

According to general evolutionary theory, the most desired traits are bred again and again until it is incorporated into virtually all of the offspring.

Where are we heading? What desired trait are we trying to spread? You know as well as I do that the geeky kids aren't the ones getting laid in school...it's the jocks, who are all too often dumb as a damn rock. Intelligence is supposedly what we are trying to pass on....

You see what I mean?