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#1
Old 02-15-2006, 09:41 AM
MickyHatton
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Default British soldiers - right or wrong?

With the pictures flying round the press about the soldiers in Iraq assualting the teenagers, whats your thoughts?

I served 14 years in the Army and served in Gulf War 1 not to mentioned Northern Ireland and Bosnia and other places, keeping in mind that this incident happened two years ago almost at the height of the troubles out and the fact that we dont know what had provoked this attack, maybe this was justified?

To me it look co-ordinated, as if they had been ordered to make a statement to a group for some reason, we did similar things when I served, if a group or individuals threw petrol bombs or bricks or worse then we split the group by force and administered a payoff in the form of a rough house arrest.
After all they had tried to kill us and would continue to do so....

Iraq is in a state of alert, if this had been on the streets of Manachester then yes it would be OTT but it wasn't, these insurgents play big boys games therefore must expect the soldiers to react accordingly!
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#2
Old 02-15-2006, 10:08 AM
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what those particular sodiers done was plain wrong
no human being deserves to be treated that way
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#3
Old 02-15-2006, 10:23 AM
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no they defenatly souldnt have done that,
but they will think again next time, so i suppose they got it into them, but its still wrong!
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Old 02-15-2006, 10:42 AM
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Its totally unacceptable behaviour and the fact that it has taken nearly 2 years for this to come out is worrying.
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#5
Old 02-15-2006, 11:19 AM
MickyHatton
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Don't want to patronise anyone and I'm not saying what they did was right but its easy to judge people sat on your cosy sofa at home.
We do not know what those Iraqi kids did, the likely hood is that they had done a serious wrong doing, we have seen one part of an overall event.
Soldiers do not got taught how to be diplomatic or sensitive, they are trained to fight, if you were stood in a line and were repeatedly petrol bombed, stoned, spat at, shot at, grenades threw at you, car bombs driven at you, suicide bombers running toward you would you say please dont bomb me, please dont throw stones at me?
Or would you do as you have been taught and address the problem by force?
These guys and girls are not Policemen they are soldiers, their job is to defend their country and follow the orders of their Country via an elected leader.
Therefore we elected Blair, therefore we have played a part however small in the decision to send these soldiers into an enviroment where there lives and the lives of their friends are in constant danger, we have done this whilst we sit at home typing on a boxing forum with our big 'we know better hats on'.
Then we judge them and condemn them!
Vietnam revisited British style.
If they have done anything wrong they will go to prison, but do not judge them lightly until you have been where they are at!
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#6
Old 02-15-2006, 01:29 PM
El Guapo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MickyHatton
Don't want to patronise anyone and I'm not saying what they did was right but its easy to judge people sat on your cosy sofa at home.
We do not know what those Iraqi kids did, the likely hood is that they had done a serious wrong doing, we have seen one part of an overall event.
Soldiers do not got taught how to be diplomatic or sensitive, they are trained to fight, if you were stood in a line and were repeatedly petrol bombed, stoned, spat at, shot at, grenades threw at you, car bombs driven at you, suicide bombers running toward you would you say please dont bomb me, please dont throw stones at me?
Or would you do as you have been taught and address the problem by force?
These guys and girls are not Policemen they are soldiers, their job is to defend their country and follow the orders of their Country via an elected leader.
Therefore we elected Blair, therefore we have played a part however small in the decision to send these soldiers into an enviroment where there lives and the lives of their friends are in constant danger, we have done this whilst we sit at home typing on a boxing forum with our big 'we know better hats on'.
Then we judge them and condemn them!
Vietnam revisited British style.
If they have done anything wrong they will go to prison, but do not judge them lightly until you have been where they are at!
yea, i know exactally what your getting at, but this will just create more beef, except for those who were beaten, or maybe not! but id of just said ****em and walk-off, thats if it were just the supposed stone throwing!
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#7
Old 02-15-2006, 03:50 PM
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Totally unacceptable, and should not be tolerated. The soldiers are there to increase the peace, not defy the peace. What they were doing was a step down from the tortures that American soldiers have been doing in the various prison camps. Its almost as bad as that, I believe. If these people are throwing petrol bombs then they are insurgents. The thing to do with petrol bomb throwing insurgents is to kill them. However, clearly the kids who were beaten were doing much less than that. They were throwing stones, probably throwing insults about and being an annoyance to the soldiers. Even then it is not justified.

The soldiers have to "win over the hearts and minds" of the people in Iraq, and conducting this sort of thing is only going to make people lose faith in the army presence.

I dont care what anyone says, I am no way responsible for this war. Firstly I didnt vote for labour, and neither did anyone in my immediate family, and secondly Blair expressed no intention to go to war illegally before he was elected, and when he did expres a feeling of war, the choice was not given to the people to decide whether we should or shouldnt. So no, im not responsible in anyway for the war, and it is a complete embarrasment....
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#8
Old 02-15-2006, 04:07 PM
MickyHatton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EXIGE
Totally unacceptable, and should not be tolerated. The soldiers are there to increase the peace, not defy the peace. What they were doing was a step down from the tortures that American soldiers have been doing in the various prison camps. Its almost as bad as that, I believe. If these people are throwing petrol bombs then they are insurgents. The thing to do with petrol bomb throwing insurgents is to kill them. However, clearly the kids who were beaten were doing much less than that. They were throwing stones, probably throwing insults about and being an annoyance to the soldiers. Even then it is not justified.

The soldiers have to "win over the hearts and minds" of the people in Iraq, and conducting this sort of thing is only going to make people lose faith in the army presence.

I dont care what anyone says, I am no way responsible for this war. Firstly I didnt vote for labour, and neither did anyone in my immediate family, and secondly Blair expressed no intention to go to war illegally before he was elected, and when he did expres a feeling of war, the choice was not given to the people to decide whether we should or shouldnt. So no, im not responsible in anyway for the war, and it is a complete embarrasment....

Kind of missing the point mate, dont talk to me about 'hearts and minds' just becuase you read the term somewhere and that makes you an expert of police states.
Unless you've been there (and I have) you haven't got a clue what your talking about so get off your high moral horse and listen for once to someone who knows something about the reality of this subject, its not a discussion based on theory or opinion like Boxing, I have been involved and have witnessed everything war can throw up and normal rules fail to apply until the status quo is back in order.
Also I am not suggesting you or anyone on here are responsible for these events becuase you may or may not have voted labour, what I was saying was that as a democracy we have enabled a system where by an elected leader makes our decisions for us at certain levels therefore we must accept a level of responsibilty for the actions of this country or we may as well get out of the country unless your a hypocrite of course.
My point was if the soldiers have acted completely without provacation or just cause then fine throw them to the dogs, if there are circumstances they led to the instance then thats sad but that war!
Therefore do not blame the soldiers blame the government for putting them there and blame us or yourself for allowing it to happen whilst you and I went on about are happy existance!
By the way Exige, you make some good points on certain matters but by arguing the toss all the time for the sake of it only highlights lack of experience and maturity.
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#9
Old 02-15-2006, 06:45 PM
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Oh, another point, it has come to light that the soldiers had found the youths building a MBP (Mortar Base Plate) and they had ran and then attacked a patrol, the patrol called for a snatch squad to assist, thats what the film showed, a snatch squad removing the leaders of this group, the same group who were suspected of mortaring the barracks and injuring soldiers snd civilians!

Never cut and dry is it!
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#10
Old 02-15-2006, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MickyHatton
Kind of missing the point mate, dont talk to me about 'hearts and minds' just becuase you read the term somewhere and that makes you an expert of police states.
Unless you've been there (and I have) you haven't got a clue what your talking about so get off your high moral horse and listen for once to someone who knows something about the reality of this subject, its not a discussion based on theory or opinion like Boxing, I have been involved and have witnessed everything war can throw up and normal rules fail to apply until the status quo is back in order.
Also I am not suggesting you or anyone on here are responsible for these events becuase you may or may not have voted labour, what I was saying was that as a democracy we have enabled a system where by an elected leader makes our decisions for us at certain levels therefore we must accept a level of responsibilty for the actions of this country or we may as well get out of the country unless your a hypocrite of course.
My point was if the soldiers have acted completely without provacation or just cause then fine throw them to the dogs, if there are circumstances they led to the instance then thats sad but that war!
Therefore do not blame the soldiers blame the government for putting them there and blame us or yourself for allowing it to happen whilst you and I went on about are happy existance!
By the way Exige, you make some good points on certain matters but by arguing the toss all the time for the sake of it only highlights lack of experience and maturity.
The first para was extremely disrespectful, since you think I have read it in a book, and assume I think I am a master on this subject. Little do you know that I was expressing my opinion, as you requested, and that this phrase "winning the hearts and minds" applies to this situation perfectly, which is why I inserted it into my post.

If you dont like my opinion, and dont think that I can make a judgement on a situation that I and many others have not been into, then simply dont come on here and ask a group of members on a boxing forum, where you know the majority would not have army experience, their opinions on a certain war topic.

I gave you my opinion and if you dont like it you're simply gonna have to put up with it, because in my book its right, and I simply wont change mindset on this.

The war is illegal, any torturous acts against these civilians is also illegal. War has a set of rules like anything else, so they dont all "fly out the window" in those situations. Its something that the British Army has always thrived on, a good reputation and a very high comparitive level of training when compared to other nations. So when I see this ****, im gonna say it is wrong, which it is. Some of those people in the video I saw were like 8 etc. In this country they wouldnt even be put in prison, since they havent even reached the age of legal responsiblity. Punishing kids isnt going to help the morale of anyone. If they thought they were insurgents (highly unlikely at 8 but it did happen in Vietnam), then they should have shot them. What they actually did was totally against any code of conduct, and was a complete embarassment for the government and the British Army....

/end rant.
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