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#71
Old 05-28-2013, 04:06 PM
Jim Jeffries
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Originally Posted by Barnburner View Post
To be fair, the only way the Sun transfers heat to Earth is through radiating electromagnetic photons. Heat can't transfer through the movement of particles as space is vaccum. Taking that into account irradiance is probably the best way of determining how much heat energy the Earth receives from the sun.
Fair enough, but how much effect does a ~1/25 of a % decrease in radiation from the Sun have on the Earth's average temperature?

Quote:
Also this debate is interesting and enlightening but both parties should try and keep the slander out of it.
Meh. It's gotten quite stale and boring at this point.



I see a fairly consistent trend towards warmer temperatures from 1910 up through the late 90's (specifically 1998.) Since then they've been flat to decreasing, depending on whose figures you're looking at.

A more interesting question is how much of that degree or so increase over that almost century time span was due to human CO2 consumption. Or how has the Earth's temperature been affected by the reduction in radiation from the Sun? (as I asked above.)
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#72
Old 05-28-2013, 04:23 PM
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I'm not sure how big an impact that will have,it doesn't sound a lot but that decrease is per square meter though. So if you take all 510,000,000,000 metres of it (and divide that by 2, obviously) and find out the total magnitude of the decrease then that's perhaps quite a big difference in the amount of radiation that is incident on Earth. Definitely not enough to produce a noticeable temperature change but probably not negligible either.

I'm not sure though.

Yes I think it's clear that the planet is getting hotter even if it's bouncing around a bit while doing so. It's just a case of finding how much we are too blame but the science behind blaming humans makes sense to me.
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#73
Old 05-28-2013, 05:07 PM
Jim Jeffries
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnburner View Post
I'm not sure how big an impact that will have,it doesn't sound a lot but that decrease is per square meter though. So if you take all 510,000,000,000 metres of it (and divide that by 2, obviously) and find out the total magnitude of the decrease then that's perhaps quite a big difference in the amount of radiation that is incident on Earth. Definitely not enough to produce a noticeable temperature change but probably not negligible either.
My physics might be a little rusty, but I wouldn't think the size of the Sun would be relevant when discussing the effect of % changes in its irradiance. Unless of course that size was changing during the process.

I remember being skeptical at the width of a street tire not having anything to do with the traction it was capable of. Reassured somewhat by sliding a block of wood down a ramp in the same time regardless of whether the contact area was doubled or not.

Quote:
Yes I think it's clear that the planet is getting hotter even if it's bouncing around a bit while doing so. It's just a case of finding how much we are too blame but the science behind blaming humans makes sense to me.
We've also had cyclical temperature changes throughout Earth's history. Ice Ages, etc. How much we're to blame (if any) and which behaviors merit changing would be nice questions to be answered from an unbiased source or three.

And when they say Earth is warmer today than during 70 to 80 percent of the past 11,300 years, that doesn't quite reach the level of "we better do something now or we're all gonna die!"

http://phys.org/news/2013-03-reconst...nificance.html
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#74
Old 05-28-2013, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Jeffries View Post
My physics might be a little rusty, but I wouldn't think the size of the Sun would be relevant when discussing the effect of % changes in its irradiance. Unless of course that size was changing during the process.

I remember being skeptical at the width of a street tire not having anything to do with the traction it was capable of. Reassured somewhat by sliding a block of wood down a ramp in the same time regardless of whether the contact area was doubled or not.
That was the size of the Earth (I meant metres squared, not just meters, sorry). I'm assuming the graph squeelpiggy gave was the irradiance from the Sun incident on the Earth, I could be wrong though. So if the Power per square metre incident on the Earth is increased by a little bit. Then that power must be multiplied by the total amount of square metres on Earth in order to get the actual increase as a single value.

That was my line of thought anyway. I'm not sure how concrete it is.


Quote:
We've also had cyclical temperature changes throughout Earth's history. Ice Ages, etc. How much we're to blame (if any) and which behaviors merit changing would be nice questions to be answered from an unbiased source or three.

And when they say Earth is warmer today than during 70 to 80 percent of the past 11,300 years, that doesn't quite reach the level of "we better do something now or we're all gonna die!"

http://phys.org/news/2013-03-reconst...nificance.html
I'll need to do a bit more reading on it before I form an actual, well thought out opinion on it. It's an interesting topic.

Last edited by Barn; 05-28-2013 at 05:28 PM..
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#75
Old 05-28-2013, 05:31 PM
Jim Jeffries
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnburner View Post
That was the size of the Earth. I'm assuming the graph squeelpiggy gave was the irradiance from the Sun incident on the Earth, I could be wrong though. So if the Power per square metre incident on the Earth is increased by a little bit. Then that power must be multiplied by the total amount of square metres on Earth in order to get the actual increase as a single value.

That was my line of thought anyway.
My reasoning stands though. The earth's measurement remains effectively constant. The total amount of radiation from the Sun that reaches Earth would increase by the same % as the radiation per square meter figures.

Plus I'm pretty sure the area of the earth is 510,000,000,000,000 square meters, not 510,000,000,000. (you have to multiply the area in square km by a million, not a thousand.)

Quote:
I'll need to do a bit more reading on it before I form an actual, well thought out opinion on it. It's an interesting topic.
You and me both. Ditto.

Last edited by Jim Jeffries; 05-28-2013 at 05:48 PM..
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#76
Old 05-31-2013, 11:40 PM
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...ed-ipcc-report

This article should clear things up. There is not a significant relation between the sun's radiation and the earth's increase in temperature over the past 5-6 decades.
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#77
Old 06-01-2013, 06:53 AM
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Whether the Earth is warming or not and whatever the cause might be that is not mine to debate. There are always countless other reasons for us to treat our environment better than we have been.
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Old 06-01-2013, 01:35 PM
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You should be ashamed of yourself for actually making this thread. SMH I can't believe people like this still exist.
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