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#21
Old 03-09-2013, 11:54 AM
Simurgh
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Originally Posted by sdcluser View Post
Sigh.....

have you taken basic physics?

Kinetic Energy = Mass * (Velocity)^2 this doesn't equate to power.

Think of more for change of momentum or change of impulse
Change of impulse/momentum won't tell much about the damage caused. It's down to energy. You need the energy to make the change (cased the damage). Changing the impulse doesn't mean you are putting any energy in doing things (again causing energy).

Nature of collision is the key! And transfer/dissipation of the energy is the key!

Last edited by Simurgh; 03-09-2013 at 12:00 PM.
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#22
Old 03-09-2013, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by miniq View Post
Technique puts the mass into the punch.
This plus the power punchers all have punches that travel through the air at good speed. They're footwork and overall speed may not be fast but their KO punches are traveling very fast when the fist meets the target. Thomas Hearns, Joe Louis, Bob Foster, Trinidad, Tyson, Pacquiao, Marquez, Julian Jackson, and all the other big punchers had good speed on their KO punches. If the speed of the punch was not there the power would not be there. If a fighter uses proper technique and puts weight into the punch then the faster the punch the harder it is just as a one pound rock going 60 miles per hour hits harder than a one pound rock going 40 miles per hour.
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#23
Old 03-09-2013, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Simurgh View Post
Torque is not the good analogy as torque power means there is a rotational movement involved. I can't see much rotational movement in the punch (there might be some).
The majority of power in the punch comes from the pivot motion and that is rotational.
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#24
Old 03-09-2013, 01:21 PM
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speed = velocity = meters/second (m/s)

mass = Kilograms (kg)

m(v^2) = (kg-m^2)/(s^2) = Newton-meters (N-m) which is not a measure of power but of torque.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Power is basically the expenditure of energy over a given period of time or Joules/second. Another way to look at it is:

(Force x Distance)/(Time) = (Force) x (Distance/Time) = (Force) x (Velocity)

(Force) x (Velocity) = (Newtons) x (m/s) = (N-m/s), which is torque/second.

You can be faster to make up for your lack of force or you can be slower and just be able to generate more force. Generating force comes from having mass and torque comes from technique.

It's all intertwined so there is no one way to be a powerful, hence why there are shorter guys with a low center of gravity but are dense like Tyson who can generate a great deal of torque and power. As well as guys that are tall like Julian Jackson who are just as powerful yet not as dense. Nonito Donaire has great technique with the left hook and if you watch him, he plants his feet and torques with all of his body weight which makes up for his lack of mass.

Technique, speed, and mass are all equally important.
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#25
Old 03-09-2013, 01:32 PM
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technique + speed + sitting down on your punches.
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#26
Old 03-09-2013, 01:37 PM
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Maybe because that is only one equation and punching/a fist-head collision is much more complex than that.
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#27
Old 03-09-2013, 01:43 PM
Simurgh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathed View Post
speed = velocity = meters/second (m/s)

mass = Kilograms (kg)

m(v^2) = (kg-m^2)/(s^2) = Newton-meters (N-m) which is not a measure of power but of torque.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Power is basically the expenditure of energy over a given period of time or Joules/second. Another way to look at it is:

(Force x Distance)/(Time) = (Force) x (Distance/Time) = (Force) x (Velocity)

(Force) x (Velocity) = (Newtons) x (m/s) = (N-m/s), which is torque/second.

You can be faster to make up for your lack of force or you can be slower and just be able to generate more force. Generating force comes from having mass and torque comes from technique.

It's all intertwined so there is no one way to be a powerful, hence why there are shorter guys with a low center of gravity but are dense like Tyson who can generate a great deal of torque and power. As well as guys that are tall like Julian Jackson who are just as powerful yet not as dense. Nonito Donaire has great technique with the left hook and if you watch him, he plants his feet and torques with all of his body weight which makes up for his lack of mass.

Technique, speed, and mass are all equally important.
No, you are wrong. Although the units are same the formula isn't and the values aren't.

Energy (kinetic) is the scalar unit and it's represented by mv^2 / 2.

Torque is the vector unit and it's a VECTOR. The torque is the vector product of the force (which is vector) and displacement which is again a vector.

Energy is not the same as torque! You can't measure the power (damage) by torque - at least not in this direct way.
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#28
Old 03-09-2013, 01:52 PM
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its all down to genetics, when your talking about guys like foreman that dont throw with great technique or at speed but can still drop a horse. its like that movie unbreakable with bruce willis. some people are just born with either thicker bones, higher density muscle fibers, even small physical advantages like having long forearms/broad shoulders or big hands.
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#29
Old 03-09-2013, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by cameronpaul View Post
its all down to genetics, when your talking about guys like foreman that dont throw with great technique or at speed but can still drop a horse. its like that movie unbreakable with bruce willis. some people are just born with either thicker bones, higher density muscle fibers, even small physical advantages like having long forearms/broad shoulders or big hands.
I agree, but again it's all govern by physics
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#30
Old 03-09-2013, 01:53 PM
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like ppl have been saying it comes down to technique, being able to put your body behind the punch. also while you use most if not all of your body to generate force behind a punch, some areas matter more than others so it matters where your mass is distributed too.

most importantly and this is something ppl who never boxed always underestimate.. its not how hard you hit someone thats most important, its how smart you hit them.

hitting guys with punches they dont see or expect, walking them into shots where they generate part of the impact by their own forward motion and of course landing cleanly to a sensitive bodypart. all these things are more important than the sheer force of a punch.

i fought guys where i let bombs go, hit them with everything but the kitchen sink. all of a sudden a punch with hardly nothing on it just lays them out. why? they didnt see it coming, it landed clean and they walked right into it providing the power on their own. thats what makes a perfect punch and the key to scoring KOs, not power.

so timing, precision, understanding of angles & distance and of course intelligence does more to create a KO than sheer power.

i remember emanuel steward saying while tommy hearns' right hand undoubtedly carried power, he wasnt even close to the hardest right hand puncher steward trained. he said tommy scored those KOs because he knew better than anyone how to set the right hand up.

he had great hand speed, a quick release, great timing, excellent precision, a great sense of distance and understanding of angles. above all else he knew how to land it, how to set it up and. off te jab, the hook, bodyshots or countering. and he had a huge arsenal of right hand counters at his disposal. aforementioned physical and technical qualities allowed him to execute with perfection, opponents never saw it coming and..zzzzzzzzz
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