Comments Thread For: Valuev: Wladimir Could Dump WBA Belt in Povetkin Mess

[hweightblogger]

Originally Posted by Own3d

Fighters they beat that were world title holders at any time in their careers

Lewis
Klitschko
Tyson
Rahman
Holyfield
Briggs
Akinwande
McCall
Mercer
Morrison
Bruno
Tucker
McCrory (CW)
Weaver
=13

Wlad
Mormeck (CW)
Haye
Peter
Chagaev
Rahman
Ibragimov
Brewster
Byrd
Mercer
=9


Fighters they beat that were world title holders when/before they beat them.

Lewis
Klitschko
Tyson
Rahman
Holyfield
Akinwande
McCall
Mercer
Morrison
Tucker
McCrory (CW)
Weaver
=11

Wlad
Mormeck (CW)
Haye
Peter
Chagaev
Rahman
Ibragimov
Brewster
Byrd
Mercer
=9

I meant heavyweight world champs, of course. Not cruiserweight or lower.

And the reason why you cannot say (like you do) "at any time in their careers" is because Wlad's opponents' careers aren't over yet. Additionally I excluded 1-time-champs who became champs only by winning against you: For example you credit Lennox with Rahman, hence you converted Lennox loss to a pluspoint in this statistic. Additionally I specified "worldchampionship wins" since that somewhat guarantees that your (former) champ is still a quality opponent and not completely shot.

So you introduced 3 unfairnesses which I excluded since I try to be as objective and as fair to boxers as possible.

But my post was supposed to be a short remark only and not a stat table.

The fact remains, that a statement like "Wlad is not fighting top guys hence this era sucks" can not be further from the truth. This is one of the best heavyweight eras, Wlad is one of the most active champs who fights some of the most excellent opponents since heavyweight history, as opposed to Ali for example, who in his title fights mostly chose to fight bummy opponents (e.g. Chuvalo 34-11) or handicaps (Joe Frazier, Cleveland Williams) or greens (Spinks) or B-level opponents (Ken Norton) or absolute featherfists (Terrell, Wepner etc).

Lennox era was top class, too. Ali's wasn't.

[LacedUp]

Originally Posted by Own3d

Fighters they beat that were world title holders at any time in their careers

Lewis
Klitschko
Tyson
Rahman
Holyfield
Briggs
Akinwande
McCall
Mercer
Morrison
Bruno
Tucker
McCrory (CW)
Weaver
=13

Wlad
Mormeck (CW)
Haye
Peter
Chagaev
Rahman
Ibragimov
Brewster
Byrd
Mercer
=9


Fighters they beat that were world title holders when/before they beat them.

Lewis
Klitschko
Tyson
Rahman
Holyfield
Akinwande
McCall
Mercer
Morrison
Tucker
McCrory (CW)
Weaver
=11

Wlad
Mormeck (CW)
Haye
Peter
Chagaev
Rahman
Ibragimov
Brewster
Byrd
Mercer
=9

I believe he was OWNED

[LacedUp]

Originally Posted by hweightblogger

I meant heavyweight world champs, of course. Not cruiserweight or lower.

And the reason why you cannot say (like you do) "at any time in their careers" is because Wlad's opponents' careers aren't over yet. Additionally I excluded 1-time-champs who became champs only by winning against you: For example you credit Lennox with Rahman, hence you converted Lennox loss to a pluspoint in this statistic. Additionally I specified "worldchampionship wins" since that somewhat guarantees that your (former) champ is still a quality opponent and not completely shot.

So you introduced 3 unfairnesses which I excluded since I try to be as objective and as fair to boxers as possible.

But my post was supposed to be a short remark only and not a stat table.

The fact remains, that a statement like "Wlad is not fighting top guys hence this era sucks" can not be further from the truth. This is one of the best heavyweight eras, Wlad is one of the most active champs who fights some of the most excellent opponents since heavyweight history, as opposed to Ali for example, who in his title fights mostly chose to fight bummy opponents (e.g. Chuvalo 34-11) or handicaps (Joe Frazier, Cleveland Williams) or greens (Spinks) or B-level opponents (Ken Norton) or absolute featherfists (Terrell, Wepner etc).

Lennox era was top class, too. Ali's wasn't.

Spoken like a true novice.

[hweightblogger]

Originally Posted by Andrew5550

Wow now you're just trolling - Through times I have seen some funny looking posts from you, but this one really takes it. Nobody in their right mind, not even the biggest Klitschko fan, should claim what you're claiming.

This is an illusion, because in EVERY era experts and fans were b*tching about the current era. In Ali's era they were dissing Ali, in Lennox' era they were dissing Lennox.

Probably it's best summarized by Archie Moore (1972):
Question: "Is boxing dying?"
Archie Moore: "Yes, it must be. They told me it was dying when I got into it as a professional in 1936. I think it started dying at about the dawn of history. So I guess it is still dying."
Archie Moore, 1972

Mind you, this is asked by the interviewer 1 year after the "Fight of the Century" Frazier vs Ali. Obviously boxing was dead back then, too.

Having seen enough fights of every era and having analyzed stats'n'facts I can honestly say the Klitschko era is one of the best heavyweight eras of all time.

[hweightblogger]

Originally Posted by Andrew5550

Spoken like a true novice.

OK, I won't ask you for counterfacts in a Valuev-WBA thread. You don't have any counterfacts anyway. In fact I know for sure that if Wladimir chose a 34-11 guy (like Chuvalo) for his next title defense, Ali fans like you would be the first one to accuse Wlad of cherrypicking and this era of being the worst in history.

Ali chose 34-11 guys (Chuvalo). Wlad choses UNBEATEN guys. Do the math which era is worse. The only thing Ali fans have left are FAME NAMES. Ali's record and Ali's era crumbles under objective inspection. Lennox' era, for example, does not.

[Freedom2013]

Originally Posted by Andrew5550

I believe he was OWNED

No. The WBO wasn't really a world title in the 90s.

Lewis:

Klitschko (prime)
Tyson (past prime)
Rahman (prime)
Holyfield (past best)
McCall (mentally ill at the time)
Tucker (past prime)
McCrory (CW) (past prime)
Weaver (past prime)

= 9, 2 in their prime

And McCall only has a world title because he beat Lewis.

Wlad:

Mormeck (CW) (past prime)
Haye (prime)
Peter x 2 (prime x past prime)
Chagaev (prime)
Rahman (past prime)
Ibragimov (prime)
Brewster (past prime)
Byrd x 2 (prime and past prime)

= 10, 5 in their prime.

[hweightblogger]

Originally Posted by Freedom.

No. The WBO wasn't really a world title in the 90s.

Lewis:

Klitschko (prime)
Tyson (past prime)
Rahman (prime)
Holyfield (past best)
McCall (mentally ill at the time)
Tucker (past prime)
McCrory (CW) (past prime)
Weaver (past prime)

= 9, 2 in their prime

And McCall only has a world title because he beat Lewis.

Wlad:

Mormeck (CW) (past prime)
Haye (prime)
Peter x 2 (prime x past prime)
Chagaev (prime)
Rahman (past prime)
Ibragimov (prime)
Brewster (past prime)
Byrd x 2 (prime and past prime)

= 10, 5 in their prime.

Thank you.

But to reemphasize my post: My post was not about details or single opponents. My point was to counter the nonsense that "Wlad doesn't fight top guys". The opposite is true: Wlad nearly always fights the highest ranked or a (former or current) champ or an unbeaten opponent.

Especially Ali's fans INVENT nonsense.

[LacedUp]

Originally Posted by hweightblogger

This is an illusion, because in EVERY era experts and fans were b*tching about the current era. In Ali's era they were dissing Ali, in Lennox' era they were dissing Lennox.

Probably it's best summarized by Archie Moore (1972):
Question: "Is boxing dying?"
Archie Moore: "Yes, it must be. They told me it was dying when I got into it as a professional in 1936. I think it started dying at about the dawn of history. So I guess it is still dying."
Archie Moore, 1972

Having seen enough fights of every era and having analyzed stats'n'facts I can honestly say the Klitschko era is one of the best heavyweight eras of all time.

I agree with that. But you're basing the greatness of this current crop on the greatness of the Klitschkos. The competition they have faced does not stack up with the competition Ali faced, Lennox, but is on par or slightly below Tyson's. Now, it's not about head2head but about levels. Take away the 2 brothers and you have one sorry HW division.

[hweightblogger]

Originally Posted by Andrew5550

I agree with that. But you're basing the greatness of this current crop on the greatness of the Klitschkos.

Yeah, I forgot. In the eyes of Ali fans a 34-11 guy (Chuvalo) or a B-level bum beater (like Norton) is more worth than any fighter after 1978.

[LacedUp]

Originally Posted by hweightblogger

OK, I won't ask you for counterfacts in a Valuev-WBA thread. You don't have any counterfacts anyway. In fact I know for sure that if Wladimir chose a 34-11 guy (like Chuvalo) for his next title defense, Ali fans like you would be the first one to accuse Wlad of cherrypicking and this era of being the worst in history.

Ali chose 34-11 guys (Chuvalo). Wlad choses UNBEATEN guys. Do the math which era is worse. The only thing Ali fans have left are FAME NAMES. Ali's record and Ali's era crumbles under objective inspection. Lennox' era, for example, does not.

It's funny you pick up Chuvalo, because he's not even considered a great win for Ali. But he was tough as old boots. But keep looking at boxrec to back yourself. Everyone knows you don't have any idea what you are talking about. The likes of Ali, Norton, Frazier, Cooper, Foreman, Holmes are all time greats. The only ones you could say that about in this crop is the two brothers. But they aren't fighting anyone that gives them competition. Sure, you can mention the "unbeaten" things. But how good was Wach? Who did he beat? McBride 10 years past his prime? who did Solis beat? Fighting piddy pad records does nothing. They don't have a single great win on their combined record - admittedly not through their own fault, but that's how it is nevertheless. Haye and perhaps Sanders are the two best wins on their combined resume. How does that stack up with Foreman/Frazier twice/Norton/Cooper?

I hope we see a memorable Wlad-Thompson trilogy or perhaps they call mormeck in for a rematch? Ooh, wait - maybe James Toney gets his shot so you can say they beat another former "world champion".