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#21
Old 02-19-2013, 04:05 AM
Hougigo
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Originally Posted by Jedi Vader View Post
I'd say Haye.

Career wise he unified the Cruiser Division and took Valuev's title from him. Someone who the Klits strangely didn't fight.

Having said that, if Haye, Povetkin, Adamek etc. are the names we're talking about, the Division is a joke.
The division is a joke though.
Barely any good fights going on.
I mean.... one of the better HW fights that could have been made didn't (Pulev/Adamek) for whatever reason.
And Haye... he's more of a CW guy.
Only two HW wins worth mentioning is Chisora and Valuev.
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#22
Old 02-19-2013, 05:22 AM
Tom Cruise
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Originally Posted by hweightblogger View Post
Nonsense.

Whom did Pinklon Thomas beat to deserve a shot at Tyson?

Whom did Ken Norton beat to deserve a shot at Ali?

Whom did Oliver McCall beat to deserve a shot at Lewis?

Whom did Mike Weaver beat to deserve a shot at Holmes?

Actually you could even ask whom did Holyfield beat to deserve a shot at Tyson? Losing to Bowe and beating Bobby Czycz?

This is one of the best eras when it comes to worthy challengers. Those to claim otherwise don't know the history of title fights.
The difference is in this era that seems like the only people who get shots at the K'bros are guys who havent fought their way up.

And Holyfield, by the time he fought tyson, fought BoweX3, Micheal Moorer, George Foreman, James Douglas and he was former undisputed cruiserweight champ. Fair enough he won some and lost some but atleast he had a resume...

In contrast Wlads last five opponents are, Wach, Thompson, Mormeck, Haye, and Sam Peter. Who had the best win at heavy out of these guys before facing Wlad?
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#23
Old 02-19-2013, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Cruise View Post
The difference is in this era that seems like the only people who get shots at the K'bros are guys who havent fought their way up.
Wlad's opponents fought their way up more than in Ali's era. Why else would have Ken Norton gotten a shot? By beating Charlie Reno (7-6)?

Why else would have George Chuvalo gotten a shot? Come on, enlighten me. Why would a 34-11 bum like Chuvalo get a world title shot? By losing 2 of his last three fights? To a 191 lbs bum (Corletti, 11-2)?

Woow. Must have been Teh Golden Age, I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Cruise View Post
And Holyfield, by the time he fought tyson, fought BoweX3, Micheal Moorer, George Foreman, James Douglas and he was former undisputed cruiserweight champ. Fair enough he won some and lost some but atleast he had a resume...
But how did he get a title shot against Mike? By LOSING to Bowe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Cruise View Post
In contrast Wlads last five opponents are, Wach, Thompson, Mormeck, Haye, and Sam Peter. Who had the best win at heavy out of these guys before facing Wlad?
1) Mormeck would probably be the best opponent on Ali's resume. Ali at real heavyweight 200x2 never fought a 6x world champ like Mormeck. Ali never did anything of that sort.

2) Haye vs Wlad was the second most punchy unification bout of all heavyweight history. Ali never did anything of that sort. http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...82&postcount=1

3) Sam Peter was unbeaten with 24 wins at real heavyweight (200x2). Muhammad Ali never won a world championship against such an opponent (Foreman had only 23 wins 200x2 at time of the bout).

4) Ali never fought a title bout against anyone with as many real heavyweight 200x2 wins as Tony Thompson. Additionally Thompson was the 7th time Wladimir Klitschko met a southpaw in a title bout. No other world champ did that ever. Ali did it only 2x (Dunn, Mildenberger). Tyson 0x, Holmes 0x, Lennox 0x. Southpaws are usually ducked. Wlad KOed Thompson 244 lbs. Ali never KOed anyone that heavy in a world title fight. Ali's heaviest world title KO is 225 lbs (KO15) and rather 220 lbs (within 12 rounds).

5) Wach was 6'7.5''. Ali never faced anyone that tall. Additionally it was Klitschko's 4th title win against an unbeaten opponent. Ali only won 2x title fights against unbeaten opponents (of which one was against *cough* a 7-0 opponent).

You see, you list here a few opponents as a proof for "unworthy challengers" yet not even Ali has faced/beaten such opponents. Now I don't claim here that Peter has a better resume than Foreman or anything of that sort. But the fact remains that Ali never beat an unbeaten opponent with 23+ wins at 200x2 in heavyweight championships.

So before criticizing Wlad's challengers you should take a very deep look at Larry Holmes' or Ali's challengers. Wlad's era features some of the most worthy challengers for the title. Definitely better than most of Ali's challengers, like half-blind Joe Frazier.

Last edited by hweightblogger; 02-19-2013 at 09:16 AM.
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#24
Old 02-19-2013, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by hweightblogger View Post
Wlad's opponents fought their way up more than in Ali's era. Why else would have Ken Norton gotten a shot? By beating Charlie Reno (7-6)?

Why else would have George Chuvalo gotten a shot? Come on, enlighten me. Why would a 34-11 bum like Chuvalo get a world title shot? By losing 2 of his last three fights? To a 191 lbs bum (Corletti, 11-2)?

Woow. Must have been Teh Golden Age, I guess.
So every champion fights a few soft touches. Difference is Ali in between those soft touches Ali fought a few prime all time greats. Anyway when exactly did i slate K'bros resume? Actually if i remember rightly i specifically excluded them as they have got as good a resume as they can have in the current era.



Quote:
But how did he get a title shot against Mike? By LOSING to Bowe?
Yes my point was that he had consistently mixed it with the best in his division prior to fighting Tyson. This thread has proved that outside of the K'bros no-one else at heavy has done that. Theres some guys coming through who will hopefully change that though.


Quote:
1) Mormeck would probably be the best opponent on Ali's resume. Ali at real heavyweight 200x2 never fought a 6x world champ like Mormeck. Ali never did anything of that sort.
That is the most ridiculous statement i have read for a long time. In fact i could even sig it for its retardedness.

Quote:
2) Haye vs Wlad was the second most punchy unification bout of all heavyweight history. Ali never did anything of that sort. http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...82&postcount=1
'Most punchy', what the hell is that? Haye is a good heavy and a good fighter on Wlads resume, but again my point is that Haye did nothing at heavyweight before fighting Wlad. He beat who, an old Ruiz, an old Monte Barret, a never good Valuev? Granted his Cruiserweight fights give him more standing (as i pointed out earlier).

Quote:
3) Sam Peter was unbeaten with 24 wins at real heavyweight (200x2). Muhammad Ali never won a world championship against such an opponent (Foreman had only 23 wins 200x2 at time of the bout).
See the Mormeck comment.

Quote:
4) Wach was 6'7.5''. Ali never faced anyone that tall. Additionally it was Klitschko's 4th title win against an unbeaten opponent. Ali only won only 2 title fights against unbeaten opponents (of which one was against a *cough* 7-0 opponent).
This is getting embarrassing now...

Quote:
You see, you list here a few opponents as a proof for "unworthy challengers" yet not even Ali has faced/beaten such opponents. Now I don't claim here that Peter has a better resume than Foreman or anything of that sort. But the fact remains that Ali never beat an unbeaten opponent with 23+ wins at 200x2 in heavyweight championships.

So before criticizing Wlad's challengers you should take a very deep look at Larry Holmes' or Ali's challengers. Wlad's era features some of the most worthy challengers for the title. Definitely better than most of Ali's challengers, like half-blind Joe Frazier.
I think you have completely mis interpreted this thread as a Klitschko bashing thread which it is not. I am mearly commenting on the lack of fights happening between guys below them.
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#25
Old 02-19-2013, 08:00 AM
hweightblogger
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Originally Posted by Tom Cruise View Post
So every champion fights a few soft touches. Difference is Ali in between those soft touches Ali fought a few prime all time greats. Anyway when exactly did i slate K'bros resume? Actually if i remember rightly i specifically excluded them as they have got as good a resume as they can have in the current era.
No, they have some of the best resumes for ANY era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Cruise View Post
Yes my point was that he had consistently mixed it with the best in his division prior to fighting Tyson. This thread has proved that outside of the K'bros no-one else at heavy has done that.
1) Wlad's career isn't over
2) Wlad's opponents' careers aren't over.

Did you check Ken Norton's resume when he got a title shot against Ali? Now imagine someone at that time would have asked (like you): Who else is there besides Ali? Ken Norton would have a B- or C-level resume.

You need to wait until their opponents' careers are over to ask such questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Cruise View Post
That is the most ridiculous statement i have read for a long time. In fact i could even sig it for its retardedness.
It would still remain a fact, no matter how you call it.

You see, the current era is so superior, that what is considered a second-tier stay-busy opponent (Mormeck) would be one of Ali's best wins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Cruise View Post
This is getting embarrassing now...
Then you are embarrassed by Ali's record. I merely objectively state what any unbiased person can see: Ali NEVER faced (let alone KOed) such opponents like Klitschko's challengers. In fact not even Larry Holmes had a title fight against anyone with so many wins at real heavyweight 200x2 like Tony Thompson. Get over it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Cruise View Post
I think you have completely mis interpreted this thread as a Klitschko bashing thread which it is not. I am mearly commenting on the lack of fights happening between guys below them.
Did Ken Norton fight Frazier? Did Frazier fight Sonny Liston?
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#26
Old 02-19-2013, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonGuy View Post
HW Contender Robert Helenius has wins over:

Samuel Peter
Sergey Liakhovich
Lamon Brewster
Derick Chisora
he was my choice but povetkin, pulev & adamek are all worthy of mentioning.
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#27
Old 02-19-2013, 08:13 AM
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No, they have some of the best resumes for ANY era.



1) Wlad's career isn't over
2) Wlad's opponents' careers aren't over.

Did you check Ken Norton's resume when he got a title shot against Ali? Now imagine someone at that time would have asked (like you): Who else is there besides Ali? Ken Norton would have a B- or C-level resume.

You need to wait until their opponents' careers are over to ask such questions.



It would still remain a fact, no matter how you call it.

You see, the current era is so superior, that what is considered a second-tier stay-busy opponent (Mormeck) would be one of Ali's best wins.



Then you are embarrassed by Ali's record. I merely objectively state what any unbiased person can see: Ali NEVER faced (let alone KOed) such opponents like Klitschko's challengers. In fact not even Larry Holmes had a title fight against anyone with so many wins at real heavyweight 200x2 like Tony Thompson. Get over it.



Did Ken Norton fight Frazier? Did Frazier fight Sonny Liston?
ok mate whatever you say... The guys the Klitschkos fought are the greatest era in heavyweight history, the K'bros are the greatest fighters in Heavyweight history, all the guys below the Klitschkos are all fighting each other tooth and nail to secure a shot at the champ (rather than waiting around for a shot like those ******* in Alis era) and of course a fat old Jean Marc Mormeck would have been the best win on Alis resume.

You win.
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#28
Old 02-19-2013, 09:10 AM
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ok mate whatever you say... The guys the Klitschkos fought are the greatest era in heavyweight history, the K'bros are the greatest fighters in Heavyweight history, all the guys below the Klitschkos are all fighting each other tooth and nail to secure a shot at the champ (rather than waiting around for a shot like those ******* in Alis era) and of course a fat old Jean Marc Mormeck would have been the best win on Alis resume.
You win.
I actually now checked the triads.

Triads is A vs B vs C vs A, e.g. "Muhammad Ali vs Jimmy Young vs Richard Dunn". Ali fought Young. Ali fought Dunn. Dunn fought Young.

Ali had 45 triads at real heavyweight 200x2.
Wladimir had already 58 triads and neither his career nor his opponents' career is over (= this number will rise considerably). Lennox had 60 triads.

When it comes to ultraheavyweight (215x2), which is even more representative of the current era than 200x2, Wlad's era had already 41 triads, Lennox' era 41, too. Holmes' era 20, Tyson's 44, Ali's 6.

So yes, Wlad's opponents fight each other at real heavyweight more often than Ali's opponents. But I guess that is also an inconvenient fact for you.
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#29
Old 02-19-2013, 03:19 PM
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I actually now checked the triads.

Triads is A vs B vs C vs A, e.g. "Muhammad Ali vs Jimmy Young vs Richard Dunn". Ali fought Young. Ali fought Dunn. Dunn fought Young.

Ali had 45 triads at real heavyweight 200x2.
Wladimir had already 58 triads and neither his career nor his opponents' career is over (= this number will rise considerably). Lennox had 60 triads.

When it comes to ultraheavyweight (215x2), which is even more representative of the current era than 200x2, Wlad's era had already 41 triads, Lennox' era 41, too. Holmes' era 20, Tyson's 44, Ali's 6.

So yes, Wlad's opponents fight each other at real heavyweight more often than Ali's opponents. But I guess that is also an inconvenient fact for you.
Glad you checked the triads, not sure how we could have had a legitimate boxing conversation without analyzing the triads.

Fact is, as ive tried to show with this thread, the top guys are not fighting each other. So far best resumes we got are Povetkin, Helenius, Haye etc all of which are average at best. Im not bashing the Klitschkos or necessarily the era, just stating my opinion. Personally i think the generation after Wlad retires is going to be a very good one, with good personalities, skills, and a vacant throne to fight over and i cant wait...

Also 'real heavyweight'? Guys were slightly lighter back in the day, due to the growth of sport science and better weight training techniques guys are slightly heavier now. Heavyweight is always heavyweight, ie the biggest guys in the sport.
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