Bookmark Website  | Free Registration  | The Team
Boxing Champions |  Boxing Schedule |  Boxing Video  |  Boxing History   |  Pound For Pound  | Lounge  | The Wire |  Audio  | Arcade

Navigation
Go Back   Boxing Forum > Boxing Forums > Boxing History
Reply
Thread Navigation

#11
Old 02-26-2013, 12:34 PM
Bolo Punch
TAFKAP
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belfast
Posts: 884
Rep Power: 6 Bolo Punch has a reputation beyond reputeBolo Punch has a reputation beyond reputeBolo Punch has a reputation beyond reputeBolo Punch has a reputation beyond reputeBolo Punch has a reputation beyond reputeBolo Punch has a reputation beyond reputeBolo Punch has a reputation beyond reputeBolo Punch has a reputation beyond reputeBolo Punch has a reputation beyond reputeBolo Punch has a reputation beyond reputeBolo Punch has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 100,000,043,902.97
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 100,000,043,902.97
happy future birthday homie - Tha_Greatest 
Default

I asked George Foreman on Twitter if he thought Ali's punching power was underrated due to other things Ali had going for him, such as his speed and personality etc. and George's reply was, "Not underrated to me! I felt it."

I assume he misread the tweet and meant he did feel it was underrated, though, as the tweet in which I originally replied to was of George saying he lied to a reporter after the fight and said that Ali's punches didn't hurt him.

He also replied to someone else saying, "Ali was not the hardest puncher I fought; but hard enough to hurt."
Reply With Quote
Bolo Punch is offline
Advertisements
>>>TO REMOVE THESE ADS, PLEASE REGISTER HERE FOR FREE<<<
#12
Old 03-12-2013, 04:48 PM
Panamaniac
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: San Francisco/Panama City
Posts: 1,311
Rep Power: 10 Panamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 10,000,092,168.68
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 10,000,092,168.68
It was private before, fixed it. - HaglerSteelChin 
Default

Most of Ali's stoppages were the result of a cumulative effect of punches, some of which opened cuts (e.g. Henry Cooper). The power that served him best was generated by the speed with which his punches were delivered to their target. As can be seen by his KO's of Folley, Liston (II)* and Foreman, speed was the main component, most notably his iconic upsets over the latter two.


*The punch that felled Liston was so quickly delivered, hardly anyone saw it live. In fact, many ringside reporters sarcastically referred to it as "The Phantom Punch," thereby implying that Sonny took a dive. It took a zillion replays to finally legitimize the outcome. Only the few who may still maintain that the earth is flat are among the disbelievers.
Reply With Quote
Panamaniac is offline
#13
Old 03-12-2013, 04:58 PM
Ray Corso
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,814
Rep Power: 14 Ray Corso has a reputation beyond reputeRay Corso has a reputation beyond reputeRay Corso has a reputation beyond reputeRay Corso has a reputation beyond reputeRay Corso has a reputation beyond reputeRay Corso has a reputation beyond reputeRay Corso has a reputation beyond reputeRay Corso has a reputation beyond reputeRay Corso has a reputation beyond reputeRay Corso has a reputation beyond reputeRay Corso has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 11,000,064,021.11
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 11,000,064,021.11
Listen to Ray, he knows boxing - valero Knowledgable poster - Weltz Knowledgeable - Beercules invaluable to the training forum - jas 
Default

The second fight with Liston shows Listen getting hit right on the chin and you can see the effect of the punch on Sonnys body as the impact ripples down his side/back. He got caught coming in and fell on his face and thats usually a tuff setting to get up from! The first fight Ali just beat him up and I do believe Sonnys shoulder was hurting him but Ali was hurting him more!
When Ali spread out and started wiping his forehead with his right glove he thought it was "power time". Ali did know how to ad shoulders and hip to his right hand and it was his speed of hand that added to the punch effectiveness! At 6'3" and 220+ when he got serious about punching hard he could! He hurt and stopped some pretty good chins on some pretty good fighters! He looked to throw the left hook from a distance never really liked to mix it in after his 1/2 which is a traditional combo. He could use it and throw it well but I think he felt the hook left him in a position to be counter more easily!! Maybe it was the after thought of Frazier hook too!!!!!!hahaha!
Ali could hurt anyone when he dropped that right hand on them! Ray
Reply With Quote
Ray Corso is offline
#14
Old 03-12-2013, 06:28 PM
Panamaniac
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: San Francisco/Panama City
Posts: 1,311
Rep Power: 10 Panamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 10,000,092,168.68
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 10,000,092,168.68
It was private before, fixed it. - HaglerSteelChin 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Corso View Post
The second fight with Liston shows Listen getting hit right on the chin and you can see the effect of the punch on Sonnys body as the impact ripples down his side/back. He got caught coming in and fell on his face and thats usually a tuff setting to get up from! The first fight Ali just beat him up and I do believe Sonnys shoulder was hurting him but Ali was hurting him more!
When Ali spread out and started wiping his forehead with his right glove he thought it was "power time". Ali did know how to ad shoulders and hip to his right hand and it was his speed of hand that added to the punch effectiveness! At 6'3" and 220+ when he got serious about punching hard he could! He hurt and stopped some pretty good chins on some pretty good fighters! He looked to throw the left hook from a distance never really liked to mix it in after his 1/2 which is a traditional combo. He could use it and throw it well but I think he felt the hook left him in a position to be counter more easily!! Maybe it was the after thought of Frazier hook too!!!!!!hahaha!
Ali could hurt anyone when he dropped that right hand on them! Ray
You confirmed my assesment of the source (hand speed) of Ali's power.

Muhammad was - in essence - a "head hunter." As good a left hook as he had, he disdained going to the body with it, or with any other power punches, be that out of fear of counter as you suggested, or some other aversion. He did have a propensity for delivering ineffectual jabs to an opponent's midsection when he got on his toes, but that's about it. The few body punches he landed was purely incidental and within combinations.

The right hand to the temple he nailed Zora Folley with was a real beaut.
Reply With Quote
Panamaniac is offline
#15
Old 03-14-2013, 08:14 PM
Mugwump
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: St. Helens, UK
Age: 42
Posts: 1,477
Rep Power: 9 Mugwump has a reputation beyond reputeMugwump has a reputation beyond reputeMugwump has a reputation beyond reputeMugwump has a reputation beyond reputeMugwump has a reputation beyond reputeMugwump has a reputation beyond reputeMugwump has a reputation beyond reputeMugwump has a reputation beyond reputeMugwump has a reputation beyond reputeMugwump has a reputation beyond reputeMugwump has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 2,032,899.64
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 2,032,899.64
Default

Ali was never about power hitting. Indeed, if we could somehow measure and compare his power scientifically - purely in terms of maximum force applied in N/m - I reckon he'd be pretty low down a list including Foreman, Liston, Frazier, Norton, Cooper etc. etc. Perhaps even in the bottom third of all his opponents.

Power is terribly overrated. It saddens me listening to endless conversations about which fighter could "hit the hardest". Sure, some guys are physically capable of throwing enormous punches. But a gutsy fighter who possesses solid defensive technique can overcome even the biggest bombs.

Consider the Barrera vs Hamed fight. Regardless of what anyone thinks about Hamed there is absolutely no doubt that he was a ferocious puncher. One of the heaviest hitters at that weight in many generations. But Hamed could have continued throwing haymakers at Barrera right up till today and still not put him away. And it's not that Barrera was so tough that he wouldn't have been starched had he caught one flush on the chin. No - Barrera and his team sacrificed his usual attacking style to fight a masterful defensive bout which completely neutralized Hamed's power advantage.

Many fighters don't even need a defence to cope with power. No matter how hard someone hits there will always be chins out there which don't crack.

Either way - power has never been an insurmountable problem to world class fighters.

Timing, on the other hand, is a far, far more dangerous attribute. And if there was one thing Ali (like Sugar Ray Robinson and Duran) possessed in spades it was timing. Ask any fighter which punch they'd prefer to face - an absolute bomb from a known explosive hitter which they are expecting and set to take or just a hard (but otherwise unremarkable) one which catches them completely out of the blue?

The truth is it has never been necessary to have explosive power to hurt and/or knock people out. And Ali's record is as good a proof thereof. He could achieve with a fraction of the power someone like Foreman possessed equal or greater success because his opponents rarely saw his punches coming and such detonated at precisely the point when they were at their most vulnerable.
Reply With Quote
Mugwump is offline
#16
Old 03-14-2013, 08:46 PM
likeamulekick
Contender
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 477
Rep Power: 5 likeamulekick has a reputation beyond reputelikeamulekick has a reputation beyond reputelikeamulekick has a reputation beyond reputelikeamulekick has a reputation beyond reputelikeamulekick has a reputation beyond reputelikeamulekick has a reputation beyond reputelikeamulekick has a reputation beyond reputelikeamulekick has a reputation beyond reputelikeamulekick has a reputation beyond reputelikeamulekick has a reputation beyond reputelikeamulekick has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 173,302.20
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 173,302.20
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugwump View Post
Ali was never about power hitting. Indeed, if we could somehow measure and compare his power scientifically - purely in terms of maximum force applied in N/m - I reckon he'd be pretty low down a list including Foreman, Liston, Frazier, Norton, Cooper etc. etc. Perhaps even in the bottom third of all his opponents.

Power is terribly overrated. It saddens me listening to endless conversations about which fighter could "hit the hardest". Sure, some guys are physically capable of throwing enormous punches. But a gutsy fighter who possesses solid defensive technique can overcome even the biggest bombs.

Consider the Barrera vs Hamed fight. Regardless of what anyone thinks about Hamed there is absolutely no doubt that he was a ferocious puncher. One of the heaviest hitters at that weight in many generations. But Hamed could have continued throwing haymakers at Barrera right up till today and still not put him away. And it's not that Barrera was so tough that he wouldn't have been starched had he caught one flush on the chin. No - Barrera and his team sacrificed his usual attacking style to fight a masterful defensive bout which completely neutralized Hamed's power advantage.

Many fighters don't even need a defence to cope with power. No matter how hard someone hits there will always be chins out there which don't crack.

Either way - power has never been an insurmountable problem to world class fighters.

Timing, on the other hand, is a far, far more dangerous attribute. And if there was one thing Ali (like Sugar Ray Robinson and Duran) possessed in spades it was timing. Ask any fighter which punch they'd prefer to face - an absolute bomb from a known explosive hitter which they are expecting and set to take or just a hard (but otherwise unremarkable) one which catches them completely out of the blue?

The truth is it has never been necessary to have explosive power to hurt and/or knock people out. And Ali's record is as good a proof thereof. He could achieve with a fraction of the power someone like Foreman possessed equal or greater success because his opponents rarely saw his punches coming and such detonated at precisely the point when they were at their most vulnerable.
nice post, its always looked odd when guys throw average jabs or straight right hands moving back and the opponents just drop, and its simply, as you said, because the guy was not ever expecting that punch to be thrown while he was on the offence. He does it again in the cleveland williams fight http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJUzl0aFHZw 5 min 20 secs.
Reply With Quote
likeamulekick is offline
#17
Old 03-15-2013, 02:30 AM
ILLuminato
Don't be a Flo-Bot
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Stankonia, NY
Age: 24
Posts: 3,835
Rep Power: 13 ILLuminato has a reputation beyond reputeILLuminato has a reputation beyond reputeILLuminato has a reputation beyond reputeILLuminato has a reputation beyond reputeILLuminato has a reputation beyond reputeILLuminato has a reputation beyond reputeILLuminato has a reputation beyond reputeILLuminato has a reputation beyond reputeILLuminato has a reputation beyond reputeILLuminato has a reputation beyond reputeILLuminato has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 6,538,393.08
Bank: 5,861,756.23
Total Points: 12,400,149.31
Gay and Lesbian Pride - Piggu 
Default

OF COURSE Liston took a dive. That's really obvious to me.

George Foreman had over-trained for the fight and was not at his best. He lost the fight before it began. So I don't really put an emphasis on that fight with respect to Ali's power.

Ali couldn't knock out Joe Frazier, who Foreman knocked out really easily. Frazier was there to be KO'ed and that Ali couldn't do it says a lot about his power.
Reply With Quote
ILLuminato is offline
#18
Old 03-15-2013, 02:38 AM
TysonBomb
Interim Champion
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 509
Rep Power: 3 TysonBomb has a reputation beyond reputeTysonBomb has a reputation beyond reputeTysonBomb has a reputation beyond reputeTysonBomb has a reputation beyond reputeTysonBomb has a reputation beyond reputeTysonBomb has a reputation beyond reputeTysonBomb has a reputation beyond reputeTysonBomb has a reputation beyond reputeTysonBomb has a reputation beyond reputeTysonBomb has a reputation beyond reputeTysonBomb has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 38,688.08
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 38,688.08
one of boxingscene's worst posters - Freedom. No Message - Fire and Fear No Message - Fire and Fear No Message - Fire and Fear 
Mourning - Anti-Gang - Melanoma - Fire and Fear Alzheimer's - Crohn's &amp; Colitis - Cystic Fibrosis - Domestic Violence - Fibromyalgia - Leimyosarcoma - Lupus - Fire and Fear 
Default

Liston took a dive ... but Ali had decent power.

Nothing special but his punches were stinging and slicing.
Reply With Quote
TysonBomb is offline
#19
Old 03-15-2013, 05:27 AM
Japanese Boxing
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,215
Rep Power: 5 Japanese Boxing has a reputation beyond reputeJapanese Boxing has a reputation beyond reputeJapanese Boxing has a reputation beyond reputeJapanese Boxing has a reputation beyond reputeJapanese Boxing has a reputation beyond reputeJapanese Boxing has a reputation beyond reputeJapanese Boxing has a reputation beyond reputeJapanese Boxing has a reputation beyond reputeJapanese Boxing has a reputation beyond reputeJapanese Boxing has a reputation beyond reputeJapanese Boxing has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 945,029,054.43
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 945,029,054.43
deliciousness - tongue me Thanks!!! - DempseyRollin well deserved - HaglerSteelChin 
Troop and Military Support - Amber Alert - Bladder Cancer - Endometriosis - Equality - Liver Cancer - Liver Disease - Missing Children - POW/MIA - Spina Bifida - Suicide - tongue me 
Default

Average power, great timing and speed. His set ups were really slick too.
Reply With Quote
Japanese Boxing is offline
#20
Old 03-18-2013, 06:53 PM
Panamaniac
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: San Francisco/Panama City
Posts: 1,311
Rep Power: 10 Panamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond reputePanamaniac has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 10,000,092,168.68
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 10,000,092,168.68
It was private before, fixed it. - HaglerSteelChin 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILLuminato View Post
OF COURSE Liston took a dive. That's really obvious to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TysonBomb View Post
Liston took a dive...
Oh, please...

Reply With Quote
Panamaniac is offline
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
ali's, power, punching, underated?

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Privacy Policy - Submit News - Feedback - Site Map - Advertise with Us

Copyright 2003-2013 BoxingScene LLC All rights reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:41 AM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.