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#101
Old 02-27-2013, 02:47 AM
wmute
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Originally Posted by tonyjones View Post
Roberto Duran was what 17 or 18 at the end of the 60s he's part of the change in the sport just like Ali as I already said he changed the game,they are products of there environments who benefited from progression in training methods,nutrition,tape.....Is it coincidence that in the 50s joe Walcott became the oldest world champion at 37 but yet mayweather,Marquez,klitschko and Martinez are all still dominating at that age and older!!!is this due to weak opposition or just maybe it's the advances in training and nutrition.although I'm not a fan of it MMA is just as primitive and primal if not more so and you can see the clear evolution in that sport from Gracie's to Jon jones........Nice try with the videos but i would like to see the videos of a Henry Armstrong next to a pacquaio or a defensive wizard B.leonard next to a Whitaker or maybe a ferocious jack Dempsey next to a Lennox lewis
You are right! In fact I remember Ray Arcel and Angelo Dundee interviews on how they were using all that "progression in training methods" and that made Duran and Ali ahead of their times... Especially Arcel, he really changed his methods in the 70s... it is perhaps better to stfu about things one does not know, no?

As for Walcott he won the HW title at 37 after 65 fights or so. How many 35+ fighters you see "dominating" after 65 pro fights? Again, can you please try to make decent arguments supporting your claims? (Just trying to help here)

Last edited by wmute; 02-27-2013 at 03:01 AM.
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#102
Old 02-27-2013, 04:06 AM
Bundana
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Originally Posted by Anthony342 View Post
I'm arguing that Sven Ottke doesn't have a strong resume and since Joe Louis defended the heavyweight title 25 times and does have a good one, that proves that not every fighter from today is better than those of the past. If everyone is so much better, then why has nobody surpassed Louis' record? If today's boxers are so much better, they'd be surpassing the achievements of those who came before them and shattering records, like all the swimmers and track athletes we see breaking records every summer Olympics, but they're not, so my argument is some from today might be better and others from the past are still better and that goes for a lot of sports. If today's athletes were better, than they would be at the top of everyone's all-time greatest lists, but they're not. When it comes to the best, we still hear names mentioned like Johnny Unitas, Joe Montana, Ruth, Mays, Dimaggio, Michael Jordan, Ali and Louis. Someday we might hear those names replaced by the likes of a Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Lebron James or some boxer that hasn't come along yet, but we have yet to see that.
But I agree with you completely! Ottke does not have a great resume (despite his record number of defences, at 168, and a 100% record)... which is exactly the point I was arguing!

And as I've said in a couple of posts already, I also agree, that there is no evidence to support the claim, that modern boxers gradually get better and better - like athletes do in sports where you can objectively measure the results, and where records get broken all the time.

The only thing I'm objecting to, is your reasoning. You say, that there hasn't been a heavyweight since Ali, better than him (I agree)... because if there had been, he would have broken Ali's record of being a 3-time lineal champion. But that doesn't make any sense, as you're now turning boxing into a measurable sport - which is exactly what it isn't!

Ali's 3 lineal championships is something you can use in a trivia question - but it has nothing to do with how great he was as a boxer. He became champion at a young age - and after a forced retirement he came back as a mature man to score that great victory over Foreman, to win his 2nd title. Now becoming a 2-time champion like that was certainly a great accomplishment. But to become a 3-time champ he had to lose to Leon Spinks first, and I honestly can't see, how that gives him a better resume... as opposed to if he had never lost to Spinks in the first place! So, no... for someone in the future to be seen as an even greater fighter than Ali, he doesn't have to break Ali's 3-time lineal championship record.

I used Ottke as an example of how numbers can be deceiving. Joe Louis' 25 successful defences is certainly an impressive statistic - but it's not what made him a great fighter. Being a fantastic 2-handed puncher and a brilliant boxer, is what made him a great fighter! Dariusz Michalczewski won 25 title fights in a row, but I never see him mentioned in relation to greatness.

My whole point is, that while I agree modern boxers don't automatically get better and better (as athletes do in almost all other sports)... you simply can't "prove" that by numbers.
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#103
Old 02-27-2013, 07:07 AM
tonyjones
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Originally Posted by wmute View Post
You are right! In fact I remember Ray Arcel and Angelo Dundee interviews on how they were using all that "progression in training methods" and that made Duran and Ali ahead of their times... Especially Arcel, he really changed his methods in the 70s... it is perhaps better to stfu about things one does not know, no?

As for Walcott he won the HW title at 37 after 65 fights or so. How many 35+ fighters you see "dominating" after 65 pro fights? Again, can you please try to make decent arguments supporting your claims? (Just trying to help here)
Most people learn from there mistakes so my point is that along the passage of time people progress it's a combination of many factors not just arcel and Dundee as trainers so no need to be sarcastic......I'm sure a decent number of walcotts 65 fights werent exactly the highest standard (quality over quantity) and also take into account the amateur careers of the likes of klitschko and mayweather....I'm not trying say old school fighters are a bunch of bums who wouldn't survive if thrown into a time machine and brought to the present!i just believe that fighters have pushed on that extra few %.........I respect who made this sport what it is
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#104
Old 02-28-2013, 04:47 PM
The Tase
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Originally Posted by Scott9945 View Post
That is so funny that you refer to a previous era as "tainted" when almost every top fighter is juiced up now and the terrible decisions are at an all time high.
being juiced is the next evolution of athletic sports.

Not the same as the golden era screwing black fighters left and right and mafia controlled fights.
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#105
Old 03-01-2013, 07:01 PM
chrismart83
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Robinson
Armstrong
Louis
Ali
Greb
Pep
E.Charles
B.Leonard
Duran
Langford
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#106
Old 03-01-2013, 10:45 PM
rightsideup
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1 robinson
2 duran
3 greb
4 benny leonard
6 ali
7 louis
8 tunny
9 charles
10 langford
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#107
Old 03-06-2013, 03:41 PM
SBleeder
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Originally Posted by DTMB View Post
being juiced is the next evolution of athletic sports.
Being juiced = Automatically less great than an un-juiced fighter of comparable skill in my book.
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#108
Old 03-20-2013, 05:33 PM
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#109
Old 03-21-2013, 07:15 PM
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I didn't bother reading this thread when it was going, thought I would now.

Wish I hadn't...
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