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#11
Old 02-01-2013, 05:19 AM
Skittlez
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Originally Posted by Sugarj View Post
I put Bowe on a higher pedestal than Douglas. For all the criticism on these boards Bowe only lost the tightest of tight split decisions to a prime Holyfield with Manny Steward in his corner. He was usually in better shape than people gave him credit for. Buster Douglas genuinely lost fights he should have won.

The only time Bowe was in pretty bad shape was in the first fight with Golota. He was clearly overconfident and overweight; no one thought that a European heavyweight could be anything like world class back then. He paid for it! He was if anything overtrained, too light and weak for the return.....and judging by his slurred speach afterwards that was when he really should have retired. But he showed tremendous heart in that fight. Come to think of it, was there ever a time when Bowe didn't show great heart in a professional fight?

When he threw his belt in the trash can to avoid the rematch against Lewis.
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#12
Old 02-01-2013, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Skittlez View Post
When he threw his belt in the trash can to avoid the rematch against Lewis.
That wasn't during a fight, that was also more tactical by his management than through fear by bowe
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#13
Old 02-01-2013, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Skittlez View Post
When he threw his belt in the trash can to avoid the rematch against Lewis.
There was a little more to that stunt than you might have been aware of. I gather, (as is usually the case when a challenger meets the champion) that when Bowe challenged Holyfield, Bowe received a much lower purse.

When Bowe became champion, he felt that he deserved the lions share of the purse in the match with Lewis. But I believe that the WBC were more supportive of Lewis in this regard, which is why Bowe fell out with the WBC and subsequently dumped the belt.

To be honest, I think Bowe back then would have beaten Lewis. Lewis didn't look great against Bruno or McCall.
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#14
Old 02-01-2013, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Anthony342 View Post
I've read the same said of Michael Grant. Would you agree?
I wouldn't compare them. Buster had an amateur background to accompany his natural gifts. He was also an extremely agile and fluid guy when he wasn't overweight or disinterested. Grant was more of an upright and stiff guy, and a big part of that was he did not grow up as a fighter like Buster did.
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#15
Old 02-01-2013, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Sugarj View Post
There was a little more to that stunt than you might have been aware of. I gather, (as is usually the case when a challenger meets the champion) that when Bowe challenged Holyfield, Bowe received a much lower purse.

When Bowe became champion, he felt that he deserved the lions share of the purse in the match with Lewis. But I believe that the WBC were more supportive of Lewis in this regard, which is why Bowe fell out with the WBC and subsequently dumped the belt.

To be honest, I think Bowe back then would have beaten Lewis. Lewis didn't look great against Bruno or McCall.
Lewis didn't look great because he was emotionally destroyed by the Bowe Duck.

He still knocked Bruno out though..

Lennox was on his way to a rather early prime after Ruddock.. The Lewis coming off the Ruddock win beats 99% of any ATG in the history of boxing. He thought he was gonna get Bowe next and his entire life dream was based on that.

After Bowe ducked him, Lewis went into a downward spiral that robbed him of a early prime.. the spiral ended on the back of Mccall's fist (although stoppage was debatable)

The Lewis that just demolished Ruddock would have knocked out any version of Bowe. Lewis had Bowe's number.

Bowe tasted that ruthless upper cut in the Olympics and never wanted Lennox's BRH again.
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#16
Old 02-02-2013, 12:01 AM
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Buster Douglas gets overrated on his Tyson win. People act like he completely dominated him but he didnt, it WAS a close competitive fight with Douglas getting hurt and dropped himself but pulling through and stopping Tyson in the end. This was Douglas on the very best night of his night and he never showed it again. At his peak he was good but he wasnt THAT good. If Tyson fought Holyfield instead of Douglas that same night he also would have been knocked out.

Its kind of a lot like the Hatton-Kostya fight where everyone remembers the knockout but forget how competitive it was and that it was one guy at his worst and another guy at his best.
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#17
Old 02-02-2013, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Skittlez View Post
Grant was ruined by Lennox.

Off Subject but interesting:

Michael Grant actually had the physical tools to be dominant for years.
In the camps leading up to Lewis.. he was improving in all areas and was working on a great jab. He is 6'8 and 245-250/ no body fat. Very very athletic .

This guy is actually bigger than Vitali and was improving daily. The issue is they threw him to Lennox in the hopes of creating a new American super star and Lewis literally destroyed him. Grant never recovered from that mental murder.


The same can be said of Golota and Tua.

You are so retarded with your worship of Lennox. Golota and Tua are nothing like Grant. Grant was a late starter and was never going to be at the top because he was competing with guys who have been developing their skills since childhood. He looked great on paper and against lower tier guys, thats it.

Oh and those Klitschko guys that you hate, they would have destroyed Grant, Lennox loss or not.
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#18
Old 02-02-2013, 12:32 AM
Skittlez
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Originally Posted by el*** View Post
You are so retarded with your worship of Lennox. Golota and Tua are nothing like Grant. Grant was a late starter and was never going to be at the top because he was competing with guys who have been developing their skills since childhood. He looked great on paper and against lower tier guys, thats it.

Oh and those Klitschko guys that you hate, they would have destroyed Grant, Lennox loss or not.
I'm not so sure about that.
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#19
Old 02-02-2013, 02:25 AM
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No, not really. Otherwise you could say that about anyone. Being great is as much about mental toughness, and the predisposition to hard, heavy training as it is about physical tools/talents.

If Toney didn't become a fat ****, if Duran didn't didn't hydrate himself with bottles of coke followed by cake during training, if Mosley worked on his jab more, if Judah could fight a full 12 focused, hard rounds, if Khan had spent more time on a tight game plan and great defense......on and on and on.

Douglas did not have a sudden great night that was better than any other. He had fought that good before, and he had been beaten while fighting that good before too. He just happened to win an impossible odds fight against someone who was not only the second greatest fighter he ever fought, but considered nearly unbeatable at that stage.

He did have some obvious bad training stints where he didn't train and came in overweight, but he also got up for many of his top fights. Against Tucker, he looked in better shape than against Tyson and fought just as well. He still lost though.

Got knocked out early against Bey and Holyfield. He made mistakes that he always made but better fighters took advantage of it. Tyson didn't.

The whole "the Douglas that fought Tyson was a top ten ATG!" is just an absurd notion. That was the peak of a decent career. He always had a dodgy chin though and many of his losses had nothing to do with bad training or being out of shape. He just got caught making mistakes or got beaten by someone obviously better.
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#20
Old 02-02-2013, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Skittlez View Post
Lewis didn't look great because he was emotionally destroyed by the Bowe Duck.

He still knocked Bruno out though..

Lennox was on his way to a rather early prime after Ruddock.. The Lewis coming off the Ruddock win beats 99% of any ATG in the history of boxing. He thought he was gonna get Bowe next and his entire life dream was based on that.

After Bowe ducked him, Lewis went into a downward spiral that robbed him of a early prime.. the spiral ended on the back of Mccall's fist (although stoppage was debatable)

The Lewis that just demolished Ruddock would have knocked out any version of Bowe. Lewis had Bowe's number.

Bowe tasted that ruthless upper cut in the Olympics and never wanted Lennox's BRH again.
I think the two rounds against a battle weary Ruddock is no real basis of assessment as to how a Bowe match would have gone. Though Lewis did certainly look good that night and a match with Bowe would have been great for boxing whoever the winner.

As for the Olympics; Lewis's stoppage of Bowe was at least as controversial as McCall's stoppage of Lewis which you referred to. After a pretty evenly matched first round I was surprised to see the ref stop that one when Bowe hadn't been dropped or staggered. Two great shots from Lewis no doubt, but Bowe seemed more than able to continue. The guy had a very good chin, I'd never pick a knockout over a guy who was never stopped as a pro.
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