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#111
Old 01-24-2013, 08:18 PM
Cupo303
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Originally Posted by lefthook2daliva View Post
You make a good argument here, but I am convinced that Ali is going to be able to get in and out and side to side and circle enough wear Wlad down. Once Wlad is tired, it's over. Only way this doesn't happen is if Ali can't stop Wlad from constantly tying him up and laying across his back. Could happen, but Ali aint called the greatest for nothing. He figures it out.

Ali KO 10 WK
Again, your vision and description of this fight is slightly off. Why would Wlad tire? Ali would be doing all the moving around, while Wlad just stays in the middle of the ring, only slightly coming forward with his pawing jab and making it difficult for Ali to land his signature jab, yet alone unload combination on him like did with these other Rocky Balboa-esque fighters. It would be reminisce to Wlad vs Ibragimov (you know one of the most boring fights where Wlad didn't get to KO his opponent), only way more competitive (because I give Ali more credit than that, he is no Ibragimov). Sultan did a good job in boxing and defense, but he could never quite do enough and Wlad's jab kept him at bay.
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#112
Old 01-24-2013, 08:23 PM
Cupo303
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Originally Posted by TBear View Post
Ali would be far ahead on points when the fight is stopped in the late rounds.
Wishful thinking. Lets keep in mind that Wlad is the only who 90% time does what you just described to all of his opponents. Yet you would rightfully say that those TKO loss opponents are not even close to being as good as Ali.

However, unlike Wlad, Ali has had countless of fights where he coasts for 15 rounds with his signature jab on black and white TV, and wins by UD. There is no basis for saying that he would be "far ahead on points" and get the stoppage in the late rounds when he couldn't even do that to half of his opponents in his prime (and I haven't checked boxrec, just making this statement based on having watched dozens of Ali's fights on ESPN classic, where he stinks out the joint for 15 rounds with jabbing his opponent to a decision win).
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#113
Old 01-24-2013, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by joseph5620 View Post
Apparently you didn't see the Ernie Terrell fight. He's 6-6 and Ali had no trouble hitting him. Also, Ali planted his feet plenty of times. Claiming he rarely or never did is a fabrication.

If you pay attention to the sentence right after that, I said there may have been an exception to the rule where Ali put it all together for one fight. I have probably seen that fight, just not familiar with the name.

It still makes no difference as I've said because I doubt Terrel is of Wlad's skillset, unless you're under the false presumption that Wlad is only winning on a consistent basis because of his height (and because his opponents are zombie bums, which is idiotic. All great fighters had their share of easy opponents.).




EDIT, ahh I remember that fight now. I've seen in on ESPN classic and it never even occurred to me that the guy was 6'6 based on how he fought, lowering himself down to Ali's stature.



Poor defense, his footwork looks like he has sh1t bricks in his trunks, barely threw a jab and when he did he landed. No straight punches and always poorly executed hooks as if he were smaller than Ali.

Last edited by Cupo303; 01-24-2013 at 08:39 PM.
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#114
Old 01-24-2013, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Cupocity303 View Post
Again, your vision and description of this fight is slightly off. Why would Wlad tire? Ali would be doing all the moving around, while Wlad just stays in the middle of the ring, only slightly coming forward with his pawing jab and making it difficult for Ali to land his signature jab, yet alone unload combination on him like did with these other Rocky Balboa-esque fighters. It would be reminisce to Wlad vs Ibragimov (you know one of the most boring fights where Wlad didn't get to KO his opponent), only way more competitive (because I give Ali more credit than that, he is no Ibragimov). Sultan did a good job in boxing and defense, but he could never quite do enough and Wlad's jab kept him at bay.
Its not out the realm of possibility that Ali stops Wlad

You cant honestly say Wlad is the best opponent Ali has ever faced
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#115
Old 01-24-2013, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by MJ223 View Post
Its not out the realm of possibility that Ali stops Wlad

You cant honestly say Wlad is the best opponent Ali has ever faced

Sure I can.
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#116
Old 01-24-2013, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Cupocity303 View Post

Sure I can.
Where do you rate Wlad as a HW then???
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#117
Old 01-24-2013, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Cupocity303 View Post
Wishful thinking. Lets keep in mind that Wlad is the only who 90% time does what you just described to all of his opponents. Yet you would rightfully say that those TKO loss opponents are not even close to being as good as Ali.

However, unlike Wlad, Ali has had countless of fights where he coasts for 15 rounds with his signature jab on black and white TV, and wins by UD. There is no basis for saying that he would be "far ahead on points" and get the stoppage in the late rounds when he couldn't even do that to half of his opponents in his prime (and I haven't checked boxrec, just making this statement based on having watched dozens of Ali's fights on ESPN classic, where he stinks out the joint for 15 rounds with jabbing his opponent to a decision win).
Who did either Klitschko beat that is remotely as good as Ali? I see a bigger gap, personally, looking that way than the other. And yes, Vitali and Wlad are better than Terrell, but Ali-Terrell was not close. It was very one-sided. Fighting a man with a height advantage he was completely non-plussed.

Vitali and Wlad have been tested once at the very highest level between them, and Vitali lost on a TKO. Whatever you make of the "complete package" the brothers supposedly represent, they basically have never proven themselves to be in Ali's class. You obviously have tremendous faith in your analytical abilities and so are comfortable in your breakdown, but for most other people Ali is the natural pick. There is a reason for this.
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#118
Old 01-24-2013, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by damuttz112 View Post
Who did either Klitschko beat that is remotely as good as Ali?
This is a non starter and irrelevant question and we've been through this countless of times. It has nothing to do with analyzing the fight unless we're talking about the perception of who has the better resume, to which I would confess that YES - on paper Ali has the better achievements.

Quote:
I see a bigger gap, personally, looking that way than the other. And yes, Vitali and Wlad are better than Terrell, but Ali-Terrell was not close. It was very one-sided. Fighting a man with a height advantage he was completely non-plussed.

As I said in the previous post (and I posted the video of the fight) it didn't even occur to me that Terrel was 6'6, because he didn't look like it. His stance was horrible, the way he held his hands up invited flurries from Ali. He barely threw straight combinations (like Wlad would do), and barely used his Jab. If this is the basis for picking Ali to dominate and TKO Wlad, then fine, I can't say anything more about it than I already have.


Quote:
Vitali and Wlad have been tested once at the very highest level between them, and Vitali lost on a TKO.
This is irrelevant. Vitali is not Wlad but even that has no basis for anything as it was the ref who stopped it, not Vitali himself. Had that exact same fight occurred under 1940, 50's conditions, the ref wouldn't have even thought about stopping it, and who knows what would have happened (the extremists on both sides would have either said A) Vitali was winning the rounds and would have won the fight or B) Lennox was starting to come on and Vitali was breaking down, and would have won anyway). Irrelevant.

Quote:
Whatever you make of the "complete package" the brothers supposedly represent, they basically have never proven themselves to be in Ali's class. You obviously have tremendous faith in your analytical abilities and so are comfortable in your breakdown, but for most other people Ali is the natural pick. There is a reason for this.


I have nothing against people picking Ali. Especially a competitive yet still clear decision.

However making abrasive statement like Ali dominating and getting late TKO's is illogical and emotional reasoning. I can only speculate on reason why one would say such things - either a strong dislike for The Klischko's or some Nostalgia for the old days.
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#119
Old 01-24-2013, 09:27 PM
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#120
Old 01-24-2013, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by MJ223 View Post
Where do you rate Wlad as a HW then???

You're talking about accomplishments not Head-to-Head match up. Even if I ranked Wlad as the 100th best Heavyweight of all-times, it doesn't change the fact that I think he could've beaten Ali.

This knee-jerk hysteria of challenging the status-quo consensus that a Wlad Klitschko could beat Ali is hilarious. Like, "how dare you even make the case", while all sorts of absurd predictions are made "Ali Ko's him in 5 rounds".










For the record, I have him breaking in the Top 10 for sure. I don't argue about accomplishments too much, as the bums that Joe Louis' defeated typically are regarded better than the bums that Wlad supposedly beat just on pure bias for the past, never mind the good skilled fighters that both beat. So no point in arguing achievements, hence why most Wlad trolls resort to giving his mathematical achievements in the form of Title defenses, Ko percentage, win to loss ratio etc,. Because those can't be disputed.
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