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#101
Old 01-14-2013, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Simurgh View Post
So it wasn't important Tyson was only shelf of himself and he probably was doing drugs a few months prior to fight...

Man who put Bruno and Vitali at the same level can't talk me about boxing.
Man who talks bad english me don't talk boxing to.

Did you read what I wrote? It's not about head2head, Vitali would probably beat Bruno. That's not the point. A win on your record is about significance. Like when he became undisputed hw champion vs Holyfield. Or when he won over the world against Bruno. Lost and then came back with the best 1-2 KO the HW division has seen for the last 15 years against Rahman. And completely beat down Tyson, who many people at the time were giving a good shot to win. As I said, Vitali was a nobody back then. Seen as a fraudster with no heart or skill. Because he put up a decent effort, his career escalated. But remember Lennox was half way into retirement. No way was it his best win. Only an idiot would claim so. Oh wait..
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#102
Old 01-14-2013, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by S. Saddler 1310 View Post
take away Carl Froch (whom he didn't really beat) and Kessler's body of winning work is most unspectacular, period. it's not that complicated.

don't get your feelings hurt or anything.
Kessler landed 50% more shots than Froch, was the aggressor all night. How was it not a clear victory? Siaca, Beyer, Haussler, Froch, Sartison, Andrade, Mundine & green. Pretty OK list to me. But I don't blame you for thinking otherwise, clearly you just didn't follow the SMW division when the fights happened. I mean I love froch to death, but his win list isn't better than Kessler's.
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#103
Old 01-14-2013, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew5550 View Post
Man who talks bad english me don't talk boxing to.

Did you read what I wrote? It's not about head2head, Vitali would probably beat Bruno. That's not the point. A win on your record is about significance. Like when he became undisputed hw champion vs Holyfield. Or when he won over the world against Bruno. Lost and then came back with the best 1-2 KO the HW division has seen for the last 15 years against Rahman. And completely beat down Tyson, who many people at the time were giving a good shot to win. As I said, Vitali was a nobody back then. Seen as a fraudster with no heart or skill. Because he put up a decent effort, his career escalated. But remember Lennox was half way into retirement. No way was it his best win. Only an idiot would claim so. Oh wait..
So if you beat next dominant HW champion it doesn't count because he wasn't the champion at the time?!

No, only an idiot would claim his biggest victory is over tyson... We better tell Wladimir to fight Holyfield.
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#104
Old 01-14-2013, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew5550 View Post
You just royally exposed yourself. You have many British friends... Haha. That's it really. If he doesn't have any supporters why does he fill out stadiums and make more TV money than the klits? Doesn't make any sense to me.

I agree he wanted the fight badly, after he was already retired. It's always a good excuse to use. "Don king ****ed it up". Boente ****ed the Haye-Wlad/Vitali fight up many times and was exposed like the hairdresser he is by Adam Booth on skysports.

All I know is they didn't fight and they should have. And for sure it wasn't the big beast from the east who ducked. No way,
It's a British thing. They're not the brightest bunch, you know, the 'yobs'. But the general public has disposed of the fraudster.
The Klitschko's make way more money than Haye the celebrity ever will. They are just not so yobbish about it.
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#105
Old 01-14-2013, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew5550 View Post
Kessler landed 50% more shots than Froch, was the aggressor all night. How was it not a clear victory?
punchstats (often misleading) should never be used in serious boxing discussion. if one cannot analyse a fight with his own eyes, he should not be talking about it. i've already outlined my reasoning in another thread. if you want to dispute it with some actual analysis of your own instead of falling back on some dubious statistics, go there.


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Originally Posted by Andrew5550 View Post
Siaca, Beyer, Haussler, Sartison, Andrade, Mundine & green. Pretty OK list to me.
ok, yes, but very mediocre. far from the murderers row one would expect from a man who was so touted for big things once upon a time.

look at the names you're reduced to citing. Haussler, Mundine, Siaca, Green, Beyer, Sartison. these are some of the best that this supposedly elite talent could string together over almost 20 years?


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Originally Posted by Andrew5550 View Post
I love froch to death, but his win list isn't better than Kessler's.
i paid close attention to the SMW division during Kessler's time, because it was the era of a fighter i followed, Joe Calzaghe. it was a famously weak talent-pool back then. ever since SMW got deep, Kessler hasn't done much except get battered by a guy he was supposed to deal with routinely (Ward), win a gift against Froch and then spend the next 3 years hiding.

excepting Kessler's gift decision over Froch himself, Froch's best wins are indeed better than Kessler's, if you're basing your judgement on the quality of the fighters concerned. but that's besides the point. nothing special was ever really expected of Froch, he's an overachiever. Kessler is a massive underachiever by contrast with expectations, and that's the point i'm making.

the only time Kessler has ever stepped up when circumstances didn't appear to be tilted in his favour was when he fought Calzaghe. he can't keep living off that act forever. you greatly overstate his warrior credentials.

Last edited by S. Saddler 1310; 01-14-2013 at 11:10 AM.
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#106
Old 01-14-2013, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by WladimirK View Post
It's a British thing. They're not the brightest bunch, you know, the 'yobs'. But the general public has disposed of the fraudster.
The Klitschko's make way more money than Haye the celebrity ever will. They are just not so yobbish about it.
Bernd Boente came out and said that Sky PPV made Haye a lot more money than their RTL contract -hence he wouldn't agree to Haye keeping what he brought and the klits could keep what they brought and share the revenue $ 50/50. Do your homework before starting this BS. You never speak any sense. No research or sources. You just jab out Klit loving posts everytime. You're not a boxing fan and you have no sense of history.
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#107
Old 01-14-2013, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Simurgh View Post
So if you beat next dominant HW champion it doesn't count because he wasn't the champion at the time?!

No, only an idiot would claim his biggest victory is over tyson... We better tell Wladimir to fight Holyfield.
He became the champ in another era! It had no bearing on Lennox Lewis legacy. It is not the fight he is remembered for, and it is no way the best win on his record. He smashed him to bits when he was at his worst. That's it. That's what we need to state here. Nothing else. Because there's nothing else to it.

And ps. I never said his biggest win was over Tyson. I said it has more significance than his win over Vitali. Which it did and still does. Had that fight never happened people would have wondered "what if" forever. If the Vitali fight never happened, nobody would have cared.
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#108
Old 01-14-2013, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew5550 View Post
Bernd Boente came out and said that Sky PPV made Haye a lot more money than their RTL contract -hence he wouldn't agree to Haye keeping what he brought and the klits could keep what they brought and share the revenue $ 50/50. Do your homework before starting this BS. You never speak any sense. No research or sources. You just jab out Klit loving posts everytime. You're not a boxing fan and you have no sense of history.
You're so obsessed about the Klitschko's because they are so way above Haye in every sense and it buggers your inferiority complex. Real boxing fans and experts like myself would never mention Haye among their favorite fighters. And those all time favorites you mention, I bet you only ever saw them on video, because you're a novice.

Last edited by -Weltschmerz-; 01-14-2013 at 11:28 AM. Reason: misspelling
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#109
Old 01-14-2013, 11:33 AM
LacedUp
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Originally Posted by S. Saddler 1310 View Post
punchstats (often misleading) should never be used in serious boxing discussion. if one cannot analyse a fight with his own eyes, he should not be talking about it. i've already outlined my reasoning in another thread. if you want to dispute it with some actual analysis of your own instead of falling back on some dubious statistics, go there.
dubious statistics? What? That Kessler was busier and landed more? Those are facts my dear friend. He was the aggressor all night long. It was a close fight, yes. But he certainly won it. What did Froch do to win the fight? I'd like to know. Because it reminds me of a certain Dirrell, who Froch said he won against because he was the aggressor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S. Saddler 1310 View Post
ok, yes, but very mediocre. far from the murderers row one would expect from a man who was so touted for big things once upon a time.

look at the names you're reduced to citing. Haussler, Mundine, Siaca, Green, Beyer, Sartison. these are some of the best that this supposedly elite talent could string together over almost 20 years?
Almost 20 years? It's been 15 years. And you can only fight the best that are around in your time. He has fought everyone. There's not a single fighter, except for the fraud Bute, who he didn't fight that was worth anything. These guys were champions and all ranked in the top 10 when he fought them. That's the best you can do. Additionally, he went to Wales, Germany, Australia, USA to beat and fight these guys.



Quote:
Originally Posted by S. Saddler 1310 View Post
i paid close attention to the SMW division during Kessler's time, because it was the era of a fighter i followed, Joe Calzaghe. it was a famously weak talent-pool back then. ever since SMW got deep, Kessler hasn't done much except get battered by a guy he was supposed to deal with routinely (Ward), win a gift against Froch and then spend the next 3 years hiding.

excepting Kessler's gift decision over Froch himself, Froch's best wins are indeed better than Kessler's, if you're basing your judgement on the quality of the fighters concerned. but that's besides the point. nothing special was ever really expected of Froch, he's an overachiever. Kessler is a massive underachiever by contrast with expectations, and that's the point i'm making.

the only time Kessler has ever stepped up when circumstances didn't appear to be tilted in his favour was when he fought Calzaghe. he can't keep living off that act forever. you greatly overstate his warrior credentials.
We can agree that the talent pool wasn't what it was now, but is that Kessler's fault? Now, let's look at Froch's win list if you must. Taylor (KO), Dirrell (SD), Abraham (UD), Johnson (UD), Bute (KO), Mack (KO), Pascal (UD). I'm sure we can agree that these are his best wins. Let's look at 'gift' decisions here. Dirrell was a gift decision. Let's be honest- Taylor was a middleweight and dominated Carl for 8-9 rounds and floored him. Abraham is a very limited fighter and also a middleweight, Johnson was 41 years old at the time of the fight, Bute was a belt holder, but really haven't beaten anyone and Mack.. well, i'll leave it there. Pascal was a war. And it was a great victory. But that was probably even closer than Froch-Kessler I.
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#110
Old 01-14-2013, 11:36 AM
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Vitali literally shat his pants when he saw how Haye knocked out Chisora - he was thinking damn, i couldnt even scratch the guy but Haye knocked him out. Vitali is a fraud, he needs to be stripped of the title if he doesnt fight Haye. Its the fight all boxing fans want to see other than scared Klitschko fans. Scared fans for a scared fighter.
Haye only wants this fight because Vitali is old. He says as much in the article this thread is about. He realises a fighter is finished by 42. Haye is like a vulture. He sees Vitali has little left, and he circles above Vitali's head so he can take credit when the big man falls.

This why he pulled out of 2009 against both brothers - they weren't old enough yet. If he waited any longer, Vitali would have retired. If he had done it any earlier, Wladimir would have been too near his prime. His timing was perfect. Unfortunately, even a post-prime Wladimir beat Haye.

It's absurd to say Vitali is scared of Haye. Vitali fought Lewis who punches 3 times as hard as Haye.
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