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#101
Old 01-10-2013, 06:07 PM
damuttz112
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Originally Posted by yoz View Post
There's no such thing as lucky 'punches'; but there is such a thing as a lucky punch/shot.

Wladimir was still developing as a fighter. He didn't do his homework and paid the price. It happens.

I think the fact he never had the chance to avenge the defeat will effect his standing in the all-time lists.
His camp knew he was likely going to get KO'd again. But that's why his standing in history will be affected. Lewis avenged both defeats immediately. Wlad never rematched Sanders and rematched Brewster a full 3 years later.
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#102
Old 01-10-2013, 06:07 PM
Simurgh
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Originally Posted by yoz View Post
There's no such thing as lucky 'punches'; but there is such a thing as a lucky punch/shot.

Wladimir was still developing as a fighter. He didn't do his homework and paid the price. It happens.

I think the fact he never had the chance to avenge the defeat will effect his standing in the all-time lists.
Sorry, typing mistake. I meant 'lucky punch' of course. And no there is no lucky punch. Lennox wasn't even winning that fight. They were even after 4.

If that was 'a lucky punch' then same can be applied on Wlad-Sanders being 'a lucky punch' and everything that followed was the effect of that first knock down after which Wlad clearly never fully recovered.

I don't take anything away from Wlad for not avenging Sanders loss. I can name how many great ATG didn't avenge more losses than Wlad. Only because Lennox did it does not mean you absolutely need to do it to be considered great. Moreover for the fact Wlad didn't have a chance to do it as I described earlier.
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#103
Old 01-10-2013, 06:16 PM
Simurgh
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Originally Posted by damuttz112 View Post
His camp knew he was likely going to get KO'd again. But that's why his standing in history will be affected. Lewis avenged both defeats immediately. Wlad never rematched Sanders and rematched Brewster a full 3 years later.
Do you know how many unavenged losses Joe Louis, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Mike Tyson, Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, Jack Johnson, Muhammed Ali, Evander Holyfiled have? I'll just say big majority of them more than Wlad and no one less than him!

Also note that Wlad fought good 20-ish fights more than Lennox did. Not taking anything from great man Lennox. I really don't want to put any of these great ATGs down to highlight Wlad's greatness.
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#104
Old 01-10-2013, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by damuttz112 View Post
His camp knew he was likely going to get KO'd again. But that's why his standing in history will be affected. Lewis avenged both defeats immediately. Wlad never rematched Sanders and rematched Brewster a full 3 years later.
I am not making any new point. This was just hurting my eyes!

Lennox fought McCall on 1994-09-24, and rematch him on 1997-02-07. You do the math!
I can say much more about this rematch but I won't.

Why do you need to do this?! I just posted the question as a boxing fan about the great champion. Why do you have this urge to transform this to klitschko vs lennox or anti-klitschko trolling... We have countless of those on this forum.

I get you don't like Wlad but if you can't objectively discuss why do it at all?

Last edited by Simurgh; 01-10-2013 at 06:38 PM.
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#105
Old 01-10-2013, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Simurgh View Post
Do you know how many unavenged losses Joe Louis, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Mike Tyson, Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, Jack Johnson, Muhammed Ali, Evander Holyfiled have? I'll just say big majority of them more than Wlad and no one less than him!

Also note that Wlad fought good 20-ish fights more than Lennox did. Not taking anything from great man Lennox. I really don't want to put any of these great ATGs down to highlight Wlad's greatness.
With all due respect all those guys you name beat other great fighters, Wlad has never beaten a great fighter. In my opinion he has never fought a true world class heavyweight, so his career is really hard to measure. This highlights further these KO losses because not only did Wlad not rematch Sanders, he doesn't have any real 'great wins' only solid to good wins, with a few very good wins. Haye and Byrd are very good wins.
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#106
Old 01-11-2013, 04:15 AM
Simurgh
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With all due respect all those guys you name beat other great fighters, Wlad has never beaten a great fighter. In my opinion he has never fought a true world class heavyweight, so his career is really hard to measure. This highlights further these KO losses because not only did Wlad not rematch Sanders, he doesn't have any real 'great wins' only solid to good wins, with a few very good wins. Haye and Byrd are very good wins.
One can argue about that, but the fact is Wlad was always seeking for the best opponent. He beat many very good fighters. Actually I think Byrd and Haye are great fighters. Haye is all nonsense, but he is a great fighter just skill-wise.

I won't go through it again why Wlad didn't have a chance to rematch Sanders, but I really don't take anything from Wlad for that and I don't have a single doubt that any version of Wlad after 2005/06 would demolish prime Sanders.
Wlad streak in championship fights is admirable. He always fights more or less unbeaten guys.

There are a lot of ways one can measure Wlad's career and believe me how ever you put it in numbers it looks great.

P.S. Sorry for going off topic.
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#107
Old 01-11-2013, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Simurgh View Post
I don't have a single doubt that any version of Wlad after 2005/06 would demolish prime Sanders.
this is the problem with your posts, you find evidence that tells you that prime Wlad gets demolished (by pastprime, about to retire, largely unknown, unacheiving Corrie) and then you conclude from that evidence the exact opposite of what it has just told you.

Last edited by DreamFighter; 01-11-2013 at 06:37 AM.
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#108
Old 01-11-2013, 06:23 AM
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Telling people 38 times that Wlad doesn't have a weak chin will not make his chin any better. It is what it is.
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#109
Old 01-11-2013, 07:05 AM
Simurgh
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this is the problem with your posts, you find evidence that tells you that prime Wlad gets demolished (by pastprime, about to retire, largely unknown, unacheiving Corrie) and then you conclude from that evidence the exact opposite of what it has just told you.
Again... That is not prime Wlad. Not even close, not even 30% of today's Wlad.

Corrie is not that bad as you want to represent him, but he is surely levels below Wlad's prime level.

I made conclusion on 10+ fights Wlad fought against better opponents and destroyed them.
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#110
Old 01-11-2013, 07:07 AM
Simurgh
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Telling people 38 times that Wlad doesn't have a weak chin will not make his chin any better. It is what it is.
I agree. Although it goes the other way around too. We all were hearing about Wlad's 'glass chin' for years. People tend to take it for granted totally unjustified in my opinion.

And if my agenda was to glorify Wlad I would surely choose different topic, not his chin.
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