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#1
Old 01-05-2013, 12:41 AM
GrandpaBernard
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Default Mayweather and pacquiao Considered Undersized Welters Historically?

Jose Napoles has the same reach as Mayweather and is only an inch shorter. He is frequently called an undersized welter. Jose Napoles fought in the past where people were smaller on average yet he was still considered small. Maybe Mayweather isn't considered to be small often since the welter era he's in doesn't have big guys (SRL, Hearns, etc)
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#2
Old 01-05-2013, 12:47 AM
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They're all absolutely undersized Welters seeing as they started their careers at lower weights, Napoles was a natural Lightweight that had too move up to get a title shot
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#3
Old 01-05-2013, 01:18 AM
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No offence GrandpaBernard but alot of these Pacquiao/Mayweather threads could go in the nsb.
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#4
Old 01-05-2013, 07:12 AM
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Well, yes, in some respects they can. As can anyone that has moved up to 147 from a weight that was previously their best.

Still, while Pac is probably more of a natural lightweight, I think Floyd is good sized welter. 5'8" is probably the average for welterweights.

In some respect though, you could say they are both natural welterweights as they both come in without having to overly drain themselves. They are a bit closer to what the welterweights of old were like. Not in size exactly but in the sense that the weight they fought at was the weight they weighed in at.

Unlike some, I don't really believe that Floyd is a small welterweight. He's just average. A perfectly normal sized guy for 147.

If we go down that road, a hell of a lot of 147 champions should be considered 'small'. It is sort of true, if you take into account only champions that started out at 147 and moved up, but should be talking about these guys as small and just ignoring the many, many, many other small fighters in all other divisions?

The only time it becomes very relevant to me is if they are fighting guys that are significantly bigger and the only time one of them did that was when Pac fought Margarito. Floyd has always had a longer reach and been taller than his opponents. The only size disadvantage has been weight for him, but weight means nothing if you are as strong as the other guy.

Weight alone today is not often an indication of size as much as it is an indication that a guy is not losing his weight properly or puts on much too weight in between fights, thus not training properly and keeping his weight down between fights.

So, after that long, winding, pointless rant, yes...and no. Floyd has spent the largest part of his career at 147 and Pac has only spent more time as a Flyweight/Light Flyweight when he was about 12 years old and starved.

They have both stayed at 147 for the longest, most important part of their careers. That's pretty significant. That tells me that they were very suited to the weight, as both weren't remotely close to being out of shape, ever.
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#5
Old 01-05-2013, 11:24 AM
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They might have been regular size in the era of same day weigh in, but they are undersized by today's standards.
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#6
Old 01-05-2013, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyST View Post
Well, yes, in some respects they can. As can anyone that has moved up to 147 from a weight that was previously their best.

Still, while Pac is probably more of a natural lightweight, I think Floyd is good sized welter. 5'8" is probably the average for welterweights.

In some respect though, you could say they are both natural welterweights as they both come in without having to overly drain themselves. They are a bit closer to what the welterweights of old were like. Not in size exactly but in the sense that the weight they fought at was the weight they weighed in at.

Unlike some, I don't really believe that Floyd is a small welterweight. He's just average. A perfectly normal sized guy for 147.

If we go down that road, a hell of a lot of 147 champions should be considered 'small'. It is sort of true, if you take into account only champions that started out at 147 and moved up, but should be talking about these guys as small and just ignoring the many, many, many other small fighters in all other divisions?

The only time it becomes very relevant to me is if they are fighting guys that are significantly bigger and the only time one of them did that was when Pac fought Margarito. Floyd has always had a longer reach and been taller than his opponents. The only size disadvantage has been weight for him, but weight means nothing if you are as strong as the other guy.

Weight alone today is not often an indication of size as much as it is an indication that a guy is not losing his weight properly or puts on much too weight in between fights, thus not training properly and keeping his weight down between fights.

So, after that long, winding, pointless rant, yes...and no. Floyd has spent the largest part of his career at 147 and Pac has only spent more time as a Flyweight/Light Flyweight when he was about 12 years old and starved.

They have both stayed at 147 for the longest, most important part of their careers. That's pretty significant. That tells me that they were very suited to the weight, as both weren't remotely close to being out of shape, ever.
you make a great point there. I think he might have had a reach advantage, in every single fight (130 to 154) of his.
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#7
Old 01-05-2013, 12:08 PM
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Both are small, both under 5'8" and don't have heavy frames. Manny does have solid legs as to size and that aids him as a welter!
Right now in boxing theres alot of guys who are under sized, Cotto is a very small 54 pounder, Mayweather was bigger in body size than Cotto when they fought! When you compare these men to the greats from the past at welter their very small plus they don't have any power. To me Manny needs to be at 130-35 to be at peak and Floyd can't be more than 140lbs to compete evenly! Against the great welters through the years they both get beat up!!
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#8
Old 01-05-2013, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyST View Post
Well, yes, in some respects they can. As can anyone that has moved up to 147 from a weight that was previously their best.

Still, while Pac is probably more of a natural lightweight, I think Floyd is good sized welter. 5'8" is probably the average for welterweights.

In some respect though, you could say they are both natural welterweights as they both come in without having to overly drain themselves. They are a bit closer to what the welterweights of old were like. Not in size exactly but in the sense that the weight they fought at was the weight they weighed in at.

Unlike some, I don't really believe that Floyd is a small welterweight. He's just average. A perfectly normal sized guy for 147.

If we go down that road, a hell of a lot of 147 champions should be considered 'small'. It is sort of true, if you take into account only champions that started out at 147 and moved up, but should be talking about these guys as small and just ignoring the many, many, many other small fighters in all other divisions?

The only time it becomes very relevant to me is if they are fighting guys that are significantly bigger and the only time one of them did that was when Pac fought Margarito. Floyd has always had a longer reach and been taller than his opponents. The only size disadvantage has been weight for him, but weight means nothing if you are as strong as the other guy.

Weight alone today is not often an indication of size as much as it is an indication that a guy is not losing his weight properly or puts on much too weight in between fights, thus not training properly and keeping his weight down between fights.

So, after that long, winding, pointless rant, yes...and no. Floyd has spent the largest part of his career at 147 and Pac has only spent more time as a Flyweight/Light Flyweight when he was about 12 years old and starved.

They have both stayed at 147 for the longest, most important part of their careers. That's pretty significant. That tells me that they were very suited to the weight, as both weren't remotely close to being out of shape, ever.
5'8 is average for welters? Do you mean the ones today? SRL began his career as a WW and is 5 ft 10. Same applies to Sergio Martinez

I would say Oscar had a significant size advantage over Floyd. 2 inches taller and plenty of pounds. Floyd has very long arms, but most black people have longer limbs. All the opponents who have pushed Floyd to the ropes (Castillo, Oscar, and Cotto) had weight over him.
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#9
Old 01-05-2013, 11:07 PM
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Not in comparison to same day weigh ins...although they probably put on a few lbs between the weigh in and fight, but in comparison to today's welters? Ortiz coming in at 160+, Berto at or near 160. Even a guy like Guerrero who started at FW, came into the Berto fight at 152....heavier than Floyd ,who has been a welter for 7 years, has ever weighed.
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#10
Old 01-07-2013, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandpaBernard View Post
Jose Napoles has the same reach as Mayweather and is only an inch shorter. He is frequently called an undersized welter. Jose Napoles fought in the past where people were smaller on average yet he was still considered small. Maybe Mayweather isn't considered to be small often since the welter era he's in doesn't have big guys (SRL, Hearns, etc)
ummm ever heard of Paul Williams and Antonio Margarito?
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