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#11
Old 01-13-2013, 11:29 AM
BennyST
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandpaBernard View Post
5'8 is average for welters? Do you mean the ones today? SRL began his career as a WW and is 5 ft 10. Same applies to Sergio Martinez

I would say Oscar had a significant size advantage over Floyd. 2 inches taller and plenty of pounds. Floyd has very long arms, but most black people have longer limbs. All the opponents who have pushed Floyd to the ropes (Castillo, Oscar, and Cotto) had weight over him.
Yeah, 5'8" average. Goes up and down about an inch each division, on average. On average, meaning there are exceptions of course and a wide range to those exceptions, from Hearns to Langford, Williams to Donaire and Calderon to Lopez.

For instance, Cotto, Floyd, Baldomir, Judah, Ortiz, Hatton, Mosley, Pac, Clottey, Berto, Malignaggi, Colazzo, Margarito, Williams....all 147 guys, only two are above 5'9" (marg, williams) and they're huge welters. All the rest are an average of 5'8", with only two of them reaching 5'9" (colazzo and ortiz). No one is going to call judah, Mosley, Berto, or Cotto small.

Leonard was a huge welterweight, who fought from 147 to 168, and Sergio is a middleweight, natural JMW.

Like I said, its just an average for height. It's getting harder now because the weight cutting makes it easier for bigger guys to get lower, but think about it like: fly 5'3, bantam 5'4, feather 5'5, jr light 5'6, light 5'7, welter 5'8, jr middle 5'9, middle 5'10, SMW 5'11', LHW 6'0 etc.

If you're in that range, your height is perfectly suited to those divisions. He's not small by any standard. He's strong, good height, with great reach. the only thing is his weight and that has a lot more to do with his training and being fit and healthy between fights. Putting on lots of weight is as much of an indication showing laziness and gluttony between fights and adding unhealthy weight, not natural, healthy size.

If people think this is a small welterweight, I don't know what to say:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ehMQiwxamJI
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D7qR12d4Ux0
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VtBO8cYXXMA
Well, I do actually. He's not normal in comparison to Margarito, Williams, and Hearns. He is a perfectly normal, good sized welterweight, in comparison to normal, good sized welterweights.

Last edited by BennyST; 01-13-2013 at 11:35 AM.
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#12
Old 01-13-2013, 08:07 PM
Ray Corso
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In history probably slightly under sized! Against the best as opponents their "small"! Both are under 5'8" and NOT natural welters (147).

The best welters like Sugar Ray, Gavalin,Hearns, Leonard and many more were over 5'10" and trained down to make 147 as they matured.
Their height can be issue with men who are taller and use their height in their fight plan but I think the power differences are the most outstanding!
Manny punches very good for a guy who uses speed and angles but he doesn't really sit down. Floyd could punch a little better because he would have great technique to do so but he's in retreat and when he does come forward he's in rush at times. I'm not a man who thinks that size can over rule methods & techniques but if your already in there with better talent and your giving away height and weight your in tuff!! Ray.
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#13
Old 01-14-2013, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by BennyST View Post
Well, yes, in some respects they can. As can anyone that has moved up to 147 from a weight that was previously their best.

Still, while Pac is probably more of a natural lightweight, I think Floyd is good sized welter. 5'8" is probably the average for welterweights.

In some respect though, you could say they are both natural welterweights as they both come in without having to overly drain themselves. They are a bit closer to what the welterweights of old were like. Not in size exactly but in the sense that the weight they fought at was the weight they weighed in at.

Unlike some, I don't really believe that Floyd is a small welterweight. He's just average. A perfectly normal sized guy for 147.

If we go down that road, a hell of a lot of 147 champions should be considered 'small'. It is sort of true, if you take into account only champions that started out at 147 and moved up, but should be talking about these guys as small and just ignoring the many, many, many other small fighters in all other divisions?

The only time it becomes very relevant to me is if they are fighting guys that are significantly bigger and the only time one of them did that was when Pac fought Margarito. Floyd has always had a longer reach and been taller than his opponents. The only size disadvantage has been weight for him, but weight means nothing if you are as strong as the other guy.

Weight alone today is not often an indication of size as much as it is an indication that a guy is not losing his weight properly or puts on much too weight in between fights, thus not training properly and keeping his weight down between fights.

So, after that long, winding, pointless rant, yes...and no. Floyd has spent the largest part of his career at 147 and Pac has only spent more time as a Flyweight/Light Flyweight when he was about 12 years old and starved.

They have both stayed at 147 for the longest, most important part of their careers. That's pretty significant. That tells me that they were very suited to the weight, as both weren't remotely close to being out of shape, ever.
I disagree. He's 5'8 but he's a small boned guy. this is why he's so agile. He's got a smaller skull and wrists/hands than most ww's which is why I think he's a natural lw, maybe JWW. You see him when he's younger you can see his natural frame size.

Look at SRL now and tell him to stand beside FMJ, same with Hearns, clearly they are bigger boned men. FMJ has put some mass on to fit into the 147 class, But he's never been a puncher at 147 or even a guy that can take a huge punch, he just has great defense.

Pacquiao I don't feel is really a small boned guy but he's rather short at 5'6, which is what makes him come in light. he was 151 against Marquez and being 151 and ripped at 5'6 I consider on the stocky side.
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#14
Old 01-14-2013, 08:00 AM
BennyST
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That's why I'm saying he's average.

Not as big as huge welterweights like Leonard and Hearns.

He's an average sized welterweight.

Much better at lightweight, and more natural there too. But he is still perfectly fine at 147 too.
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#15
Old 01-14-2013, 09:30 AM
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floyd is right around the size of a same day weigh in WW. maybe the huge ones would be larger than he, and the small ones / climbers would be smaller. you'd really have to go on a case by case basis

floyd is a WW, for sure. started low, but he's grown into the weight. not a huge WW, but a WW.


pacquiao is a very small WW todya, he'd be a bit closer in size to a same day WW, but he's still smaller.

he was 138 when he fought hatton, and he ate like a mule in training camp. that's really a LW.

Last edited by New England; 01-14-2013 at 09:33 AM.
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#16
Old 01-14-2013, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by New England View Post
floyd is right around the size of a same day weigh in WW. maybe the huge ones would be larger than he, and the small ones / climbers would be smaller. you'd really have to go on a case by case basis

floyd is a WW, for sure. started low, but he's grown into the weight. not a huge WW, but a WW.


pacquiao is a very small WW todya, he'd be a bit closer in size to a same day WW, but he's still smaller.

he was 138 when he fought hatton, and he ate like a mule in training camp. that's really a LW.
His last 2 fights he's came in at 147 and came to the ring at around 150-151.

He's grown into WW even more so than he did in 2010-2011.

He's not a small WW today IMO. An average sized WW.
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