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View Poll Results: Do you consider Wladamir Klitschko the "lineal" champion
Yes, even though his brother is a dominant, legit WBC champion 21 72.41%
No, you can't forge new lineage with another, equally dominant champion knocking about 8 27.59%
Voters: 29. You may not vote on this poll

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#41
Old 01-04-2013, 06:23 AM
Earl Hickey
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Originally Posted by itchum77 View Post
http://www.boxingscene.com/sulaiman-...wbc-wba--56934

Danny has to choose between the 2belts apparently???
Well he's still got both the belts!

And he's not even fighting his WBC Mando!

Suliman is a senile old cunt, don't pay a blind bit of notice to his ramblings, as long as the sanctioning fee comes in it's all good.
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#42
Old 01-04-2013, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Earl Hickey View Post
meaning it doesn't count towards lineal when it was not considered a genuine world title.

Jones had the WBA, WBC and IBF titles when they were the only three recognised as legitimate world titles, hence at that point he was the lineal champion.
1: Who decides when an alphabet organization becomes relevant?

2: Does it matter if an alphabet organization strips a champion in unfairly fashion or are they to be considered supreme beings?
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#43
Old 01-04-2013, 07:14 AM
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They're brothers, so it's to be expected.

Wladimir is great, no doubt; but I think Vitali of 2003/4 stops him. There's no escaping the fact that Wladimir has a glass chin. It's just that he's developed a good defence.

Relentless pressure from someone his own height and with good boxing attributes/skills would see it tested again, for sure.
People do tend to take on Wlad's chin all the time. It's not great, no secret there but it is far from what people are trying to represent.

Wlad was never KOed. Every time he was down he got up under 10 sec. In sanders fight he was down 4 times and he got up 4 times. He was getting down over and over again as by the time his defense wasn't that good and he was slightly inexperienced to know what to do to survive a round. He tried to box immediately after he got up.

Now in the recent fights he did take some clean big shots from big punchers. He took a couple of big shots from Haye (who is big puncher) and he did take a big clean punch from the giant on steroids (Wach). It doesn't get much worse than that. He didn't walk thorough those punches but he survived them very well.

I find it very hard to believe Vitali can take him. Wlad is faster, moves better and his intrinsic technique is better. I would give some chance to 2008/09 Vitali chance but I would clearly favor Wlad.
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#44
Old 01-04-2013, 07:33 AM
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come on man, be honest, Wlad was doing a rare HW chicken dance whilst that 38 year old golfer was pounding him out at the end of the fight. He was out on his feet, no chance. If the ref hadnt stopped it, Wlad would have been KTFO, no question.
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#45
Old 01-04-2013, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Earl Hickey View Post
No because Lewis became Lineal Champion by beating Briggs, who was the lineal champion, who beat foreman who was the lineal champion, who beat moorer, who beat bowe, who beat holyfield, who beat douglas, who beat tyson, who beat spinks, who beat holmes, who beat Ali.

Do you even understand what linearity is?

Dickhead.
When did Moorer beat Bowe ?.
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#46
Old 01-04-2013, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by DreamFighter View Post
come on man, be honest, Wlad was doing a rare HW chicken dance whilst that 38 year old golfer was pounding him out at the end of the fight. He was out on his feet, no chance. If the ref hadnt stopped it, Wlad would have been KTFO, no question.
Yes that Wlad would be as he didn't have defense nor experience. He was getting hit over and over again.

I don't believe this Wlad would ever be hit like that. And even if he would he would be smart enough to recover and survive. Something like in Peter's fight but he improved much more even from Peter's fight.

I talked about his chin not defense. Would it be better if he stayed down after first knock down? Even big puncher like Sanders needed to put him down 4 times and every time he got up. Can you get my point.
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#47
Old 01-04-2013, 08:42 AM
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This is why I want Vitali to retire.
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#48
Old 01-04-2013, 08:44 AM
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Wlad is already lineal champ,may not like it but it is a fact

Last edited by LarryXXX; 01-04-2013 at 08:54 AM.
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#49
Old 01-04-2013, 08:46 AM
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Undistuped and linear champ are different...tyson had all the belts and was undisputed but wasnt lineal till he beat Spinks
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#50
Old 01-04-2013, 08:50 AM
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Yes, it'd take me some research to nail down exactly when, he may have won it in a fight previous from an established champion, but i'd have to check, but he DEFINATLEY had it by the Reggie Johnson win.

It all depends on when you exactly consider the WBO became a "real" title, instead of a regional/second tier one, but that's for the scholars.
Nothing to with the WBO, even though they weren't recognised until 2004/2005 at least. That's only to do with being Undisputed.

I'm pretty positive that Jones was never lineal at LHW. Im not sure whether there has ever been a clear line established at all with Jones, apart from HBO and the Ring putting it about that he was because he beat Gonzalez easily and he was their big name. He didnt actually win any 'linear' title though. Most people trace it through Hill. I believe that was one of the big issues with Jones the whole time. He didn't face the guy considered the lineal titlist, Dariusz Michalewsekswevskiolkaski. Eventually to Zsolt The Hack Erdei from memory.

It's all gone to **** though really. These two examples, Jones and Wlad, are why even lineal means nothing anymore. Different people have different versions of it, and its much too easy to argue that one doesn't matter while the other does, despite one having a more obvious and true line to a claimant while also obviously being the lesser fighter.

I can certainly understand Hickeys argument with Wlad though. He shouldn't officially be lineal. The number 1 and 2 guys in the division were Wlad and Vitali, with Vitali having been the only previous Ring champion. Chagaev was a very distant 3rd. With no lineage established from Lewis, and the top two guys understandably unwilling to fight each other, the lineage should not really just be given to the brother who faces the next best contender despite them being one other trinket holder. Might as well have given it to him much earlier in that case.

It's not clear, as many arent anymore, and it's certainly debatable whether a Wlad/Chagaev should have been the fight to establish any new kind of lineage to the one 'true' heavyweight championship because the simple fact is that they were not the two best fighters in the division and they weren't ranked as such either. Vitali was probably the clearer link anyway, after beating Sanders, who had beaten Wlad. Retired, came back and straight away got his old title back nd became number 1 next to Wlad. Chagaev was an afterthought but it never actually proved lineage because he was clearly not one of the two best fighters at HW and wasn't rated as such.

The simple fact is that there should still be no linear champion, as the top two fighters, who have always been ranked as such, have not fought each other and that has historically been the only way to resurrect the lineage when the true lineal champ has retired as such. It might just have to stay that way until one retires or gets beaten. That's how it should be.

Making it up for the sake of it, despite clearly being completely wrong and entirely against the whole principle of the linear title, through a pointless default fight that doesn't set the best against the best is absurd to be frank.

It's a bit like the fact that lineage gets traced to a fighter even if he disregards his title or through sanctioning corruption gets stripped, yet, it won't stay on with him through obvious promoter, ref and judge corruption from clear, and blatant robberies. Just silly.

Anyway, boxing sucks, lineal titles suck and none of it means anything anymore. It certainly does not mean you are the best fighter in any division either. It's been so diluted that its as ridiculous as any other title today. The man who beat the man just does not work anymore.

There are many examples, nearly every lineage now, where it just doesn't work as it has been much too diluted, through corrupt decisions, strippings, retirement, vacant titles, too many title bodies, no clear 1 and 2 fighters, being presented to undeserving fighters etc etc etc and as such, lineal titles should never have the same eminence as they once did. It's a long gone era, that of the lineal champion.

Last edited by BennyST; 01-04-2013 at 09:13 AM.
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