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View Poll Results: Where do you have Lewis among all time heavyweights
Goat Heavyweight. best Heavy of all times 15 10.34%
Top 2 1 0.69%
Top 3 13 8.97%
Top5 36 24.83%
Top 10 42 28.97%
Top 10-15 38 26.21%
Voters: 145. You may not vote on this poll

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#111
Old 12-24-2012, 06:56 PM
UnicornGirl
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Originally Posted by Simurgh View Post
I don't see how Lennox can be underrated when most people have him in the top10.

That is realistically his place. The issue with Lennox is he never had career defining fight,
Almost no ATG Hw fight another ATG HW in his 'prime'. Just like with Wlad, you don't factor in any 'career defining wins over ATGS', what you do is you add up all the good fighters they beat. That is how you build a strong resume.

A strong resume can be a cumulative collection of good wins or it can be a couple of ATG Wins.


Something interesting: Mason-Tucker-Grant-Mavrovic-Briggs- and Tua at the time that they fought Lennox had a combined record of 242-3.
242-3. I'm not saying those guys were ATG'S, but 242-3 is still very impressive. Just like what Wlad has done is very impressive.

I don't feel like it, but I can easily rip apart the resume of Joe Frazier and expose the fact he only had a couple mega wins which carried him to ATG Status. Or I can rip apart Rocky Marciano as well. You can destroy the resume of any fighter.


Just because Lewis ruined the likes of Grant,Tua,Golota.. don't mean they weren't good fighters at the time. Samuel Peter went on to have a mediocre career. But Wladimir deserves a huge amount of credit for that win, because AT THE TIME Peter was considered one of the best and had a lot of very good qualities which Wladimir neutralized.

You can't say Peter win was nothing to Wlad, because Peter didn't live up to potential.
Just like you can't say Golota or Grant wins were nothing to Lewis because they didn't live up to potential.
Wlad some what ruined Peter and Lewis ruined Grant.. It is what it is.

Nobody said Lewis was greater than Ali, but h2h.. hell ya a case can be made.
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#112
Old 12-24-2012, 07:41 PM
Simurgh
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Originally Posted by UnicornGirl View Post
Almost no ATG Hw fight another ATG HW in his 'prime'. Just like with Wlad, you don't factor in any 'career defining wins over ATGS', what you do is you add up all the good fighters they beat. That is how you build a strong resume.

A strong resume can be a cumulative collection of good wins or it can be a couple of ATG Wins.


Something interesting: Mason-Tucker-Grant-Mavrovic-Briggs- and Tua at the time that they fought Lennox had a combined record of 242-3.
242-3. I'm not saying those guys were ATG'S, but 242-3 is still very impressive. Just like what Wlad has done is very impressive.

I don't feel like it, but I can easily rip apart the resume of Joe Frazier and expose the fact he only had a couple mega wins which carried him to ATG Status. Or I can rip apart Rocky Marciano as well. You can destroy the resume of any fighter.


Just because Lewis ruined the likes of Grant,Tua,Golota.. don't mean they weren't good fighters at the time. Samuel Peter went on to have a mediocre career. But Wladimir deserves a huge amount of credit for that win, because AT THE TIME Peter was considered one of the best and had a lot of very good qualities which Wladimir neutralized.

You can't say Peter win was nothing to Wlad, because Peter didn't live up to potential.
Just like you can't say Golota or Grant wins were nothing to Lewis because they didn't live up to potential.
Wlad some what ruined Peter and Lewis ruined Grant.. It is what it is.

Nobody said Lewis was greater than Ali, but h2h.. hell ya a case can be made.
Some good points made and I can agree with lot of them but...

My problem with Lennox is that he fought 44 times and still managed to be KOed twice. Well this is not that bad, but let say he faced 20 more opponents (like wlad did) there is no guarantee he wouldn't have another Rahman or own Sanders moment. He also never gave Vitali another chance and I truly believe that could have been his defining fight as Vitali pushed him to the very limits. So when you are doing that summation over opponents you should have in mind Wlad (example) faced almost 20 fighters more than lennox did and most likely he will face at least 10 more fighters. He still won't get credit even if he beats them all - even if some of them become champion.

Of course many of them are not exceptional fighters but neither was Rahman or Sanders.

Prime Ali had just little bit too much of everything in every department compared to Lennox. I am not even sure Lennox would beat prime Tyson, Foreman or Wladimir for that sake...

All three hit harder than Rahman and with Lennox you know if you hit him clean there is a good chance it's night over. It's hard for me to think prime Tyson wouldn't find that chin at least once or twice... If he does it's over for Lennox.

Now back to the question Lennox is in top10 no doubt, you can even put him in top5, but everything above that is hard stretch.
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#113
Old 12-24-2012, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Simurgh View Post
Some good points made and I can agree with lot of them but...

My problem with Lennox is that he fought 44 times and still managed to be KOed twice. Well this is not that bad, but let say he faced 20 more opponents (like wlad did) there is no guarantee he wouldn't have another Rahman or own Sanders moment. He also never gave Vitali another chance and I truly believe that could have been his defining fight as Vitali pushed him to the very limits. So when you are doing that summation over opponents you should have in mind Wlad (example) faced almost 20 fighters more than lennox did and most likely he will face at least 10 more fighters. He still won't get credit even if he beats them all - even if some of them become champion.

Of course many of them are not exceptional fighters but neither was Rahman or Sanders.

Prime Ali had just little bit too much of everything in every department compared to Lennox. I am not even sure Lennox would beat prime Tyson, Foreman or Wladimir for that sake...

All three hit harder than Rahman and with Lennox you know if you hit him clean there is a good chance it's night over. It's hard for me to think prime Tyson wouldn't find that chin at least once or twice... If he does it's over for Lennox.

Now back to the question Lennox is in top10 no doubt, you can even put him in top5, but everything above that is hard stretch.
Great points made, but I also want you to consider the fact that Wlad fought easier competition leading up to elite level.

That must be taken into consideration. Did you know Wladimir already had 40 fights going into Sanders? Lewis could have gone the Wilder route and build up a 40-0 record going into Ruddock quite easily.

If you factor in the number of 'good' opponents Wlad and Lennox fought. It's around the same. And me saying 'around the same' is because of the upmost respect I have for Wlad and how I feel he is very underrated as well. You very much know most people would not say Wlad's competition has been gone.

I for one rate Peters-Chambers-Thompson quite a bit higher than most.

Wlad can surpass Lewis, but it does not depend on him. It depends on how good Wilder,Fury,Price gets. If we talking 3 Tony Tuckers even.

Say Wilder-Price- and Fury all end up being as good as Tucker. Wlad beat them all. He passed Lewis.

The issue with that is 1- I don't know if any one of those 3 will become elite.. 2-I STILL don't trust Wlad's chin.

But ya Wlad will finish as a top 10 HW ATG. No doubt. You can say a fighter is underrated even if he's ranked high though.

Think about it.. Wlad is considered a top 15 HW already... I still feel he's a bit underrated.. Don't you? At least by the boxing writers and fans.

Last edited by UnicornGirl; 12-24-2012 at 07:50 PM.
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#114
Old 12-24-2012, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by UnicornGirl View Post
Great points made, but I also want you to consider the fact that Wlad fought easier competition leading up to elite level.

That must be taken into consideration. Did you know Wladimir already had 40 fights going into Sanders? Lewis could have gone the Wilder route and build up a 40-0 record going into Ruddock quite easily.

If you factor in the number of 'good' opponents Wlad and Lennox fought. It's around the same. And me saying 'around the same' is because of the upmost respect I have for Wlad and how I feel he is very underrated as well. You very much know most people would not say Wlad's competition has been gone.

I for one rate Peters-Chambers-Thompson quite a bit higher than most.

Wlad can surpass Lewis, but it does not depend on him. It depends on how good Wilder,Fury,Price gets. If we talking 3 Tony Tuckers even.

Say Wilder-Price- and Fury all end up being as good as Tucker. Wlad beat them all. He passed Lewis.

The issue with that is 1- I don't know if any one of those 3 will become elite.. 2-I STILL don't trust Wlad's chin.

But ya Wlad will finish as a top 10 HW ATG. No doubt. You can say a fighter is underrated even if he's ranked high though.

Think about it.. Wlad is considered a top 15 HW already... I still feel he's a bit underrated.. Don't you? At least by the boxing writers and fans.
You've just ruined any credibility you had with that astonishing assertion.
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#115
Old 12-24-2012, 08:07 PM
Simurgh
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Great points made, but I also want you to consider the fact that Wlad fought easier competition leading up to elite level.

That must be taken into consideration. Did you know Wladimir already had 40 fights going into Sanders? Lewis could have gone the Wilder route and build up a 40-0 record going into Ruddock quite easily.

If you factor in the number of 'good' opponents Wlad and Lennox fought. It's around the same. And me saying 'around the same' is because of the upmost respect I have for Wlad and how I feel he is very underrated as well. You very much know most people would not say Wlad's competition has been gone.

I for one rate Peters-Chambers-Thompson quite a bit higher than most.

Wlad can surpass Lewis, but it does not depend on him. It depends on how good Wilder,Fury,Price gets. If we talking 3 Tony Tuckers even.

Say Wilder-Price- and Fury all end up being as good as Tucker. Wlad beat them all. He passed Lewis.

The issue with that is 1- I don't know if any one of those 3 will become elite.. 2-I STILL don't trust Wlad's chin.

But ya Wlad will finish as a top 10 HW ATG. No doubt. You can say a fighter is underrated even if he's ranked high though.

Think about it.. Wlad is considered a top 15 HW already... I still feel he's a bit underrated.. Don't you? At least by the boxing writers and fans.
I totally agree. Wlad is experiencing the same destiny Lennox experienced when he was active (especially prior to Tyson's fight).

I rate Lennox's chin better than Wlad's but when you have a hard puncher (let's say tyson) it doesn't matter that much. To be clear here if I represent Tyson's power by number and Lennox's/Wlad's chin by strength I would say Tyson punch is 100, Lennox's chin is 60 and Wlad's chin is 40.

They would both go down by Tyson's punch. The difference is when they face lesser puncher (let's say with punch power of 50, but most of excellent fighters have power greater than 60). I also find that Wlad has significantly better defense than Lennox. So I actually give edge to Wlad in overall defense (especially this "Emanuel Wlad").
I also rate them equally with possibility that Wlad could surpass Lennox - if he beats price, tyson, wilder and they become champions as you said.

Last point... I love both guys and I have nothing but high respect to both of them - I often rate them both in top3-5 H2H, but prime Ali is on different level.

It's somehow comparable as saying Hatton would ever be able to beat a prime Mayweather. Not under these physical laws.
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#116
Old 12-24-2012, 08:12 PM
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You've just ruined any credibility you had with that astonishing assertion.
Oh yeah, shhhhhh... you can never say this, never!
it's too painful for lennox's fan sensitive ears...
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#117
Old 12-24-2012, 08:28 PM
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He was a big under dog. Get over yourself. Do you want me to link quotes?
I will.

Odds don't mean much. Lennox was ONLY a 8-5 favorite over Tyson. I guess that means it was actually a 'close toss up' fight right. Lmao.

How am I exposing myself when Golota was tabbed to knock him the hell out. You educate yourself.
Hilarious predications of Andrew Golota vs Lennox Lewis done by boxing analysts


Pre Fight 'predication'

"Golota will turn the fight into a war. he can take a shot. Lewis will try to keep his distance but won't be able to for long. Golota KO" - Robert Seltzer, El Paso Times.

"Golota will put too much pressure on Lewis, who will make the mistake of slugging it out with him." - Steve Sneddon, Gannet News Service



My personal favorite
"Golota in two rounds - no contest. I think Lewis talks, but can't back it up with the the walk. Golota will absolutely be too much for him." - Dan Hirshberg, The Trentonian


"Golota will finish off Lewis." - Anthony Gargano, New York Post





"It'll be close through four, and then Golota hits and hurts Lewis in the fifth with a booming right. He then proceeds to wear Lewis down for a ninth-round win." - Chris Thorne, Newark Star-Ledger


Stay educated. Lennox's 6-5 favorite? That's a toss up fight. According to Bookie Odds. Did you know Bookies had Joe Louis as a favorite against Rocky Marciano? Odds don't mean ****.
Most insiders were picking GOlota to fuking Flatten Lewis.
Even if Lewis was honestly a 50-50 bet.. Won't you still consider a 50-50 fight that ended in one round impressive?
Let's say we go by the odds and it's 6-5 Lewis. Round 1 Ko? That's impressive no? So EVEN if Lewis was a 50-50 going into the fight (which he wasn't, not by boxing experts) a first round KO is STILL impressive.
Hating feels so good. It is a big part of the reason Lennox is rich and successful even to this day.
Holyfield-Broke
Bowe-Broke
Tyson- begging Hollywood for dimes.
Lennox Lewis?
Over 90 Million Euros..
Intelligence-it's not a gift. It's a trait.
Of course odds mean something. Maybe I was harsh calling you a newb and I apologize but Golata was never the favorite at any time. Lewis was never the underdog. I fully expected him to win like more then half the people did.
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#118
Old 12-24-2012, 08:50 PM
BennyST
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He's top ten easily. I voted top ten, rather than top five because he's usually around the five mark for me somewhere.

He gets underrated by many.

If you look at it very simply, he's done what very few have ever done. He's got the big three, that very few have: resume, longevity, and dominance.

Beat every fighter he ever faced.
Three time heavyweight champion.
Undisputed, lineal heavyweight champion.
Beat the former two dominant heavyweights of his era and just before.
Beat the future dominant heavyweight champion of the next era.
Beat all the top contenders and champions, except Bowe.
Retired as undisputed, lineal champion.
Beat 14/15 champions.
Beat numerous HOFers and two arguable top 10 ATG heavyweight champions.
Was champion over a decade, made about 14 defenses of his titles all up over his reigns and made 7 defenses of his lineal championship.
One of only about five guys in history to regain the championship three times.

Last edited by BennyST; 12-24-2012 at 08:57 PM.
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#119
Old 12-24-2012, 08:59 PM
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McCall was crying even before he got in the ring

They took a man out of rehab who was throwing christmas trees in hotel lobbies and made him fight. Joke
McCall nearly always cried even before he got in the ring moron. The guy was ****ing crazy.

He cried before he won his title fight, he cried before he lost his title fight, he cried before he beat Lewis and he cried before he lost to Lewis.
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#120
Old 12-24-2012, 09:16 PM
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The facts are dead. ESB destroyed the 'facts' guy. The sheer amount of British Trolls on ESB dominated Klittards to the extend they all flew and vanished, outside of a stubborn few.

ESB- TKO6 Sticky.
Oh, he's over on Boxing Ass now posting "The Facts" :chuckle9:

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