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#21
Old 12-15-2012, 04:17 PM
crold1
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I totally agree with your p4p rankings, Pac is definitely above Floyd. - Neutral 
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Originally Posted by stretchedout View Post
I agree with you in part, but jeez dude, climbing all over Rold is crazy.

It was an excellent article, and mainly on point, this is a perspective issue.

And I believe that this is the video that you were referring to.....

LOL...thanks bro. Loving your posts as you are clearly loving to unload years of get back at the crazies. Rock on.
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#22
Old 12-15-2012, 05:00 PM
stretchedout
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LOL...thanks bro. Loving your posts as you are clearly loving to unload years of get back at the crazies. Rock on.
Would I do a thing like that?

What did you think of that video ?

Manny has definitely benefited from some great match-making.

The key is timing.

Pac jumped on Hatton Cotto Mosley when they were clearly well-past their best.

You can even add Diaz to that list, because he wasnt close to the best at lightweight. Cotto and Mosley were not great wins imho, Pac did not fight even close to the best versions of either, and he waited until it was obvious that Mosley was shot.

My point is this, how could an achievement be accurately described as great, when the same feat would have been achieved by a number of guys in that same division?

Which one of Manny's wins since Diaz, would not have been achieved by a number of other guys? I contend that Hatton Cotto (145lbs) Mosley - at the time Pac fought them - would have also been beaten by 3-4 guys in that same division. Thats what I mean by lacking in substance.

I feel that not only are those wins not great, but many are tarnished..... like how they waited for Mosley to start decomposing before they would fight him, the catch-weight, etc. Dont get me started on Margarito.
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#23
Old 12-15-2012, 10:00 PM
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I totally agree with your p4p rankings, Pac is definitely above Floyd. - Neutral 
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Would I do a thing like that?

What did you think of that video ?

Manny has definitely benefited from some great match-making.

The key is timing.

Pac jumped on Hatton Cotto Mosley when they were clearly well-past their best.

You can even add Diaz to that list, because he wasnt close to the best at lightweight. Cotto and Mosley were not great wins imho, Pac did not fight even close to the best versions of either, and he waited until it was obvious that Mosley was shot.

My point is this, how could an achievement be accurately described as great, when the same feat would have been achieved by a number of guys in that same division?

Which one of Manny's wins since Diaz, would not have been achieved by a number of other guys? I contend that Hatton Cotto (145lbs) Mosley - at the time Pac fought them - would have also been beaten by 3-4 guys in that same division. Thats what I mean by lacking in substance.

I feel that not only are those wins not great, but many are tarnished..... like how they waited for Mosley to start decomposing before they would fight him, the catch-weight, etc. Dont get me started on Margarito.
I watched a little of it. I already know. DLH was a sucker bet. I wrote at the time the only way Manny was winning was if Oscar was shot. I have a different opine now. I think Manny showed enough at Welter to make him and a younger Oscar interesting. Not saying he'd win, but Oscar could get confused by faster men. I still think timing mattered there..but Oscar was the culprit. He thought he was picking on a little guy. Pac/Roach took the sucker and rode it to MILLIONS.

Sure there was matchmaking and timing. It's why I never bought that was Manny was doing was more impressive than Duran at Welter. I was critical of Diaz, Marg, and Mosley at the time. Marquez III too (but I was proved wrong there). Hatton and Cotto are still high quality wins. They both had one loss. You can't beat everyone with an "0." Cotto went on to do some good things and give Floyd a go. Hatton was coming off one of his better wins (Paulie).

So was Clottey. Bradley was but he got jobbed. It not who else at Welter might have beat them; there was veritable round robin going on. They were beating each other. With Pac, it's a question of how many other guys coming from where he came could have done it. Not many in this era. No one else tried. His four lineal titles came against the man viewed as the TOP in class when he did it each time. That's commendable. He had the right tools (namely speed) to pull it off. He also had the right field. I've written before, here, on boards etc...if Leonard, Hearns et. al. were at Welter prime in 2009, Pac-May would have stayed at 140 or below. Armstrong likely would never have been who he was at 47 if he came along when a Robinson, Leonard, or even Griffith/Rodriguez was there.

As I noted, this was come to Jesus time for those who wanted to say Pac was top 10 or something all time. If he'd fought and beat Mayweather when it counted, maybe he could have broached that. Ha gamed it a little. Still one of the best careers I've ever seen and we shouldn't assume there won't be a curtain call. From Ledwaba in 2001 to Marquqez IV was an incredible run with losses to a pair of fellow ATGs. I'm happy for JMM in the sense that he has his concrete win now.

They're both two of the best fighters we're going to live through.

Edit: Wow...just watched IV again. What a damn awesome fight. Marquez's will in the fifth when he gets tagged with the right hook is just epic. Totally different fight to compare it to, but that last right reminds me of the shot Tyson bailed himself out against Botha with.

Last edited by crold1; 12-15-2012 at 10:08 PM.
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#24
Old 12-15-2012, 10:15 PM
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I did say which one in the pre-report card, though I scored for him live on the one most didn't (third). I think the third fight was extremely close. The draw in the first is perfectly fair. Rewatching recently, I thought Pac won the second pretty clean. When both were at their absolute physical peak, Pac was a better.

I don't think any of the results were a robbery. I don't think either man has that much more substance but that scale still weighs to Pacquiao slightly.

Marquez made a lot of bad career choices at times, and got some forced on him early in his career. Not taking a rematch with Pac in 2005 was on him, not Pacquiao. Over the last two years, he was fighting lesser lights than Pacquiao between the Pacquiao fights with no criticism. While he was fighting guys like Terdsak, Pac was pushing into stardom. He doesn't just have more high end wins...he accomplished more period.

If JMM had got the decision the first time, maybe the roles reverse. History didn't play out that way.

As to no old men, Marquez beat Barrera well after Pac knocked out a P4P streaking MAB and got Casamayor two fights removed from the Santa Cruz abortion. Both still outstanding wins, but it's revisionism to pretend either wasn't faded.

Head to head, Marquez has the most decisive win of the series in a fight where he was actually, and deservedly, behind. GREAT shot but it doesn't erase that these two just push each other to a veritable standstill. It's close as hell, all the time. I would agree with JMM's assessment that he is the smarter figheter, but Manny's game pushes his ring intellect to the absolute limit and vice versa. It's beautiful stuff.

As to the WAYYYYYY oversatted catchweight thing (and I was critical of it in Cotto BECAUSE I thought it undercut Pacquiao's run more than the fight itself where I didn't see ANY impact in the ring by asking Cotto to lose one more pound than he had come in the fight before), I'll just quote from Bread Edwards over at BTalk earlier this week. Not precisely how I'd put it, but close enough:

Some HATERS claim Manny has been matched so carefully and he always has the advantages. Thatís so not true. I canít think of another multiple division champion who was the BIG underdog in his first 3 title tries. In his first title try against Chatchai Sasukal {WBC flyweight title, 1998) he went on the road against a top 25 p4p type and got a KO. In his second title try against Ledlho Ledwaba (IBF 122-pound title), he took the fight on two weeks notice against the best guy in the division and stopped him. Then they brought him in to showcase him against Marco Antonio Barerra and he moved up and brutalized him. Then he immediately fought the next best guy in the division in Marquez. After that Morales in a trilogyÖ. When did this guy get matched carefully?

He moved up to welterweight after one fight at lightweight. He didnít get to test any of the waters. How was that careful? 90% of the people thought Oscar would kill him. There was nothing careful about jumping from 135 to 147 in one fight.

He then took on the best fighter in the division in Miguel Cotto. And he fought the guy that many thought beat Cotto in Joshua Clottey. Again I donít see careful matchmaking. He also fought Margarito who was always a BIG welterweight who never did much over 147. So Manny lets him come in at 150lbs and wear 8oz gloves and gets outweighed by almost 20 pounds on fight night. What the hell was so careful about that?

Manny then takes on an undefeated p4p fighter in Tim Bradley sandwiched by two fights with the one person who has his number in JM Marquez. If people would take off their hater shades they would see this man fought the fights.

Next they call him the Catchweight King. The man was the protagonist in 2 catchweight fights. Miguel Cotto and Antonio Margarito. Thatís it. Now I admit the Margarito fight was a BS title fight, but it was a REAL fight in the ring. To allow a big welterweight to come in at 150, when you canít even eat up to 147 at the time is not beneficial. And to ask Cotto to come in 1lb under his previous fight was more so mind games in my opinion. Speaking of catchweights Cotto fought Margarito at a catchweight and never got a bad word of press.

JM Marquez is the dog of all dogs but in his third fight with Pacquiao he asked for a catchweight of 144lb and that was a title fight. Not one person complained. Marquez also asked for a catchweight against Floyd at 144 but was burned. He didnít get flack for asking for a catchweight and Floyd didnít get flack for coming in 2lbs over. But Manny is the Catchweight KingÖ.

So many great fighters have fought at catchweights over the years but Manny gets the nickname the Catchweight King. Smh. I can name too many. I dare someone to ask me.
To be fair, Marquez wasn't exactly fresh going into those fights either.
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#25
Old 12-15-2012, 10:19 PM
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I totally agree with your p4p rankings, Pac is definitely above Floyd. - Neutral 
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To be fair, Marquez wasn't exactly fresh going into those fights either.
Hell no. Neither was. Marquez should also get credit for changing his plan to be more focused on perfect timing and lesser output in IV. Great adjustment. The longevity of both guys is astounding considering how physical some of their career fights. When he was fighting Norwood, and Pac was fighting Sasakul, to think they'd get where they got, and still be this good over a decade later, speaks to who they are.

It's just awesome. I love this Fab Four. No Leonard-Durna III here.
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#26
Old 12-16-2012, 03:43 PM
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I watched a little of it. I already know. DLH was a sucker bet. I wrote at the time the only way Manny was winning was if Oscar was shot. I have a different opine now. I think Manny showed enough at Welter to make him and a younger Oscar interesting. Not saying he'd win, but Oscar could get confused by faster men. I still think timing mattered there..but Oscar was the culprit. He thought he was picking on a little guy. Pac/Roach took the sucker and rode it to MILLIONS.

Sure there was matchmaking and timing. It's why I never bought that was Manny was doing was more impressive than Duran at Welter. I was critical of Diaz, Marg, and Mosley at the time. Marquez III too (but I was proved wrong there). Hatton and Cotto are still high quality wins. They both had one loss. You can't beat everyone with an "0." Cotto went on to do some good things and give Floyd a go. Hatton was coming off one of his better wins (Paulie).

So was Clottey. Bradley was but he got jobbed. It not who else at Welter might have beat them; there was veritable round robin going on. They were beating each other. With Pac, it's a question of how many other guys coming from where he came could have done it. Not many in this era. No one else tried. His four lineal titles came against the man viewed as the TOP in class when he did it each time. That's commendable. He had the right tools (namely speed) to pull it off. He also had the right field. I've written before, here, on boards etc...if Leonard, Hearns et. al. were at Welter prime in 2009, Pac-May would have stayed at 140 or below. Armstrong likely would never have been who he was at 47 if he came along when a Robinson, Leonard, or even Griffith/Rodriguez was there.

As I noted, this was come to Jesus time for those who wanted to say Pac was top 10 or something all time. If he'd fought and beat Mayweather when it counted, maybe he could have broached that. Ha gamed it a little. Still one of the best careers I've ever seen and we shouldn't assume there won't be a curtain call. From Ledwaba in 2001 to Marquqez IV was an incredible run with losses to a pair of fellow ATGs. I'm happy for JMM in the sense that he has his concrete win now.

They're both two of the best fighters we're going to live through.

Edit: Wow...just watched IV again. What a damn awesome fight. Marquez's will in the fifth when he gets tagged with the right hook is just epic. Totally different fight to compare it to, but that last right reminds me of the shot Tyson bailed himself out against Botha with.
Yes, Hoya not so much, thats why I didnt mention him. He tried to setup a lightweight, just like Team Pac did for #3, and they both got burned. Good job. But I found Roach's comments pretty indicative of how they go about their business.

I still feel that a number of guys would have beaten those opponents when Pac fought them, so I struggle to think of them as great achievements..... but you make some great points.

I think that fighters of Duran's ilk, the very upper echelon, are at least a level above Pac. And I dont spend too much time thinking about a head to head between those guys. Pac has never beaten a top lightweight at 135, and Duran was one of the best ever.

Same at 140, I think Hatton was a cracked egg by that stage, and not the best at 140. Would Duran have required a catch-weight for Cotto?

But great points, thanks for providing a bit of balance.
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#27
Old 12-16-2012, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by stretchedout View Post
I agree with you in part, but jeez dude, climbing all over Rold is crazy.

It was an excellent article, and mainly on point, this is a perspective issue.

And I believe that this is the video that you were referring to.....

that video should be updated there is a video on why they fougth JMM the third time pretty much Freddie thougth JMM was ripe for the picking and he thougth he had lost a step in the Kats figth and his age was showing
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