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#11
Old 12-15-2012, 07:56 AM
crold1
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I totally agree with your p4p rankings, Pac is definitely above Floyd. - Neutral 
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Originally Posted by Muscles72 View Post
I don't think so he says he'll be back and he may but he won't be the same history repeats itself look at the many others who suffered brutal knockouts.
Some come back. Some don't. When matters. Terry Norris had a HOF career AFTER Julian Jackson left him senseless. Fullmer rebounded from Robinson II to end up winning their series, beating Basilio twice etc. Duran came back from Hearns to beat Barkley, but little else as he was already on the other side of peak. Tiger got done by Foster at the back end of his run and was about out, but STILL had a Fight of the Year win over DePaula and a win over Benvenuti.

Pac might have a big win or two left, but the wild ride of his prime is about done. The after affect of a devastating knockout like that varies from person to person but there's lots of evidence it can be overcome. That sort of KO doesn't take as much physically out of a fighter as a beating like Trinidad-Vargas. Mentally...we'll see.
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#12
Old 12-15-2012, 07:57 AM
crold1
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I totally agree with your p4p rankings, Pac is definitely above Floyd. - Neutral 
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Originally Posted by JAS_JAS View Post
agree, but the hater in them is too strong... gotta love these people lol
Any Marquez fan who has had to put up with the most obnoxious Pac fans over the years can hate away. It's their moment and they should relish it. I love them both. This era's Fab Four, fight for fight, has stayed brilliant and thrilling longer than any multi-man rivalry I can think of with this probably surpassing MAB-Morales as the centerpiece rivalry.
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#13
Old 12-15-2012, 10:37 AM
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Marquez needs to retire on a high note, what more does he have to prove
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#14
Old 12-15-2012, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by stretchedout View Post
Marquez is a legend, the man just has Pacquiao's number.

He is simply better than Pacquiao. Pac has more high-end wins, but Marquez has better substance. When he moved up, Marquez beat better fighters who were legitimately ranked higher in each division. The guys he beat were on top of their game , no catch-weight bullsh1t, no old age pensioners, no contractual manipulation..... and Marquez is prepared to prove that his achievements are legitimate by undertaking any and all testing protocol.

Cliff, if you are sure that Pacquiao won at least 1 of the fights, you should have been able to tell us which one

Fuk the spirit of fair play, I have all of those fights, I cant find one that I can give to Manny. I think Pac was lucky to get away with a draw in the 1st, I think he knows he lost the 2nd, and we dont need to discuss the 3rd and 4th.

A great read.
Great post
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#15
Old 12-15-2012, 12:46 PM
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Congratulations Pac !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You finally won FOTY
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#16
Old 12-15-2012, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by commonsense81 View Post
it will be interesting to see if manny can recover mentally from that single punch if they fight again. even the shot that he caught in the third the way marquez set that shot up would make most people gun shy if they fought that same calculated person again.
He has already recovered. acceptance is the start. He already accepted the KO. And ready to move on. Some fighters cant accepted a loss, or how they loss or both! It messes with their mind and confidence. Manny is a real humble strong minded forgiving person. He will move on fine! He walked into a perfect timed punched. Moving on....If anything, It woke him up!
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#17
Old 12-15-2012, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by commonsense81 View Post
Im speaking from the stand point of neutrality and fairness that first fight pac should of won due to the mistake of the one judge, the second fight could of went either way that was no robbery at all. The third fight was marquez in my book but it was close with marquez taking the last off thinking he won he should have known better. The fourth fight we all know what happened. Marquez does have pacs number but cant just take away pacs whole legacy knocking out cotto who was not weight drained, he came in 1 pound less than he did his previous fights was impressive. every one of pacs opponent are blown away by his talents including all of the mexicans fighters he fought they have mad respect for him.He is no slouch by far.
Why would you attempt to convince me that your opinion holds more weight than the facts ?

" I will not drain my body for another fighter "
~ Miguel Cotto

Pacquiao Admits Catch-Weight Is Crucial To Outcome With Cotto.....
http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/...ome-with-cotto
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#18
Old 12-15-2012, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by crold1 View Post
I did say which one in the pre-report card, though I scored for him live on the one most didn't (third). I think the third fight was extremely close. The draw in the first is perfectly fair. Rewatching recently, I thought Pac won the second pretty clean. When both were at their absolute physical peak, Pac was a better.

I don't think any of the results were a robbery. I don't think either man has that much more substance but that scale still weighs to Pacquiao slightly.

Marquez made a lot of bad career choices at times, and got some forced on him early in his career. Not taking a rematch with Pac in 2005 was on him, not Pacquiao. Over the last two years, he was fighting lesser lights than Pacquiao between the Pacquiao fights with no criticism. While he was fighting guys like Terdsak, Pac was pushing into stardom. He doesn't just have more high end wins...he accomplished more period.

If JMM had got the decision the first time, maybe the roles reverse. History didn't play out that way.

As to no old men, Marquez beat Barrera well after Pac knocked out a P4P streaking MAB and got Casamayor two fights removed from the Santa Cruz abortion. Both still outstanding wins, but it's revisionism to pretend either wasn't faded.

Head to head, Marquez has the most decisive win of the series in a fight where he was actually, and deservedly, behind. GREAT shot but it doesn't erase that these two just push each other to a veritable standstill. It's close as hell, all the time. I would agree with JMM's assessment that he is the smarter figheter, but Manny's game pushes his ring intellect to the absolute limit and vice versa. It's beautiful stuff.

As to the WAYYYYYY oversatted catchweight thing (and I was critical of it in Cotto BECAUSE I thought it undercut Pacquiao's run more than the fight itself where I didn't see ANY impact in the ring by asking Cotto to lose one more pound than he had come in the fight before), I'll just quote from Bread Edwards over at BTalk earlier this week. Not precisely how I'd put it, but close enough:

Some HATERS claim Manny has been matched so carefully and he always has the advantages. Thatís so not true. I canít think of another multiple division champion who was the BIG underdog in his first 3 title tries. In his first title try against Chatchai Sasukal {WBC flyweight title, 1998) he went on the road against a top 25 p4p type and got a KO. In his second title try against Ledlho Ledwaba (IBF 122-pound title), he took the fight on two weeks notice against the best guy in the division and stopped him. Then they brought him in to showcase him against Marco Antonio Barerra and he moved up and brutalized him. Then he immediately fought the next best guy in the division in Marquez. After that Morales in a trilogyÖ. When did this guy get matched carefully?

He moved up to welterweight after one fight at lightweight. He didnít get to test any of the waters. How was that careful? 90% of the people thought Oscar would kill him. There was nothing careful about jumping from 135 to 147 in one fight.

He then took on the best fighter in the division in Miguel Cotto. And he fought the guy that many thought beat Cotto in Joshua Clottey. Again I donít see careful matchmaking. He also fought Margarito who was always a BIG welterweight who never did much over 147. So Manny lets him come in at 150lbs and wear 8oz gloves and gets outweighed by almost 20 pounds on fight night. What the hell was so careful about that?

Manny then takes on an undefeated p4p fighter in Tim Bradley sandwiched by two fights with the one person who has his number in JM Marquez. If people would take off their hater shades they would see this man fought the fights.

Next they call him the Catchweight King. The man was the protagonist in 2 catchweight fights. Miguel Cotto and Antonio Margarito. Thatís it. Now I admit the Margarito fight was a BS title fight, but it was a REAL fight in the ring. To allow a big welterweight to come in at 150, when you canít even eat up to 147 at the time is not beneficial. And to ask Cotto to come in 1lb under his previous fight was more so mind games in my opinion. Speaking of catchweights Cotto fought Margarito at a catchweight and never got a bad word of press.

JM Marquez is the dog of all dogs but in his third fight with Pacquiao he asked for a catchweight of 144lb and that was a title fight. Not one person complained. Marquez also asked for a catchweight against Floyd at 144 but was burned. He didnít get flack for asking for a catchweight and Floyd didnít get flack for coming in 2lbs over. But Manny is the Catchweight KingÖ.

So many great fighters have fought at catchweights over the years but Manny gets the nickname the Catchweight King. Smh. I can name too many. I dare someone to ask me.
what a dam CLOWN its real funny how this Pac lover didnt mention any of the remarks Freddie Roach made of Cotto,Mosely,Margs,Hattan,Moralas,Oscar and JMM and why they chose to figth these guys ALL HIS REMARKS ARE ON YOUTUBE ON VIDEO WHERE EVERYONE CAN HEAR IT FROM HIS OWN MOUTH. Then these clown wounder why everybody is going deep in Pac booty after he got knock the fock out THE NERVE OF THESE CLOWNS IS RIDICULOUS . THE TRUTH HURTS AND ANYBODY WHO SPEAKS IT, IS CALLED A HATER GET THE FOCK OUT OF HERE WITH THAT CRAP YOU DAM LOSER

Last edited by solo20; 12-15-2012 at 02:21 PM.
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#19
Old 12-15-2012, 03:54 PM
stretchedout
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Originally Posted by solo20 View Post
what a dam CLOWN its real funny how this Pac lover didnt mention any of the remarks Freddie Roach made of Cotto,Mosely,Margs,Hattan,Moralas,Oscar and JMM and why they chose to figth these guys ALL HIS REMARKS ARE ON YOUTUBE ON VIDEO WHERE EVERYONE CAN HEAR IT FROM HIS OWN MOUTH. Then these clown wounder why everybody is going deep in Pac booty after he got knock the fock out THE NERVE OF THESE CLOWNS IS RIDICULOUS . THE TRUTH HURTS AND ANYBODY WHO SPEAKS IT, IS CALLED A HATER GET THE FOCK OUT OF HERE WITH THAT CRAP YOU DAM LOSER
I agree with you in part, but jeez dude, climbing all over Rold is crazy.

It was an excellent article, and mainly on point, this is a perspective issue.

And I believe that this is the video that you were referring to.....

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#20
Old 12-15-2012, 03:59 PM
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And just getting back to Cotto.....

Pacquiao Admits Catch-Weight Is Crucial To Outcome With Cotto.....
http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/...ome-with-cotto

If the catch-weight was irrelevant, and I dont think that anybody actually believes that...... then why it a show-stopper? If Cotto did not agree, the fight was off, the weight demand was a show-stopper.

And it was the same recently. Cotto was Pac's first choice, but only at 147.

154 = nope..... 150 = nope. Pac only wanted the watered down version.

And it was exactly the same with Mosley.

And it was the same last year with Marquez, hence that ridiculous "catch-weight".
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